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Title: MatchMaker 84
Host: Nobody
Game version: Zero-K v1.5.3.11
Engine version: 103.0.1-712-g1ccec6e
Started: 30 days ago
Duration: 8 minutes
Players: 2
Bots: False
Mission: False
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Team 1

CHrankAdminDeinFreund
Team 2

unknownrankSnuggleBass
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CHrankAdminDeinFreund
30 days ago
Let's split hover into light hover and heavy hover factory. Light hover factory only builds daggers and cons, heavy hover factory builds the remaining hover units. I'm sure it would still get plopped.
+0 / -0


unknownrankSnuggleBass
29 days ago
(edited 29 days ago)

I don't think dagger fac would get plopped.

So much of the value of daggers relies on any adjustment by an opponent being countered by scalpels. ATM any opposing riots are rendered obsolete by scalp, but can you image trying to fight against warriors with only daggers?

I've tried this sort of thing back when I was pushing that raider challenge stuff. It turns out even a noob can beat me if they know I'm limited to raiders, but if I only use raiders while backed with the threat of changing my composition, I will stomp noobs every time.

Similarly, scalpels are only as good as they are because they have daggers to punish any raider that might be able to target them. Scalpels typically hit the field when the raider game is already won in response to opposing riots. Notice how in this game, neither of us change to scalpel because the raider game is not won?
+0 / -0


CHrankConnetable
29 days ago
CHrankAdminDeinFreund , what you need to do is win against GF with daggers and then, change will happen :)
+2 / -0



CHrankAdminDeinFreund
29 days ago
He doesn't play D:
+0 / -0




AUrankAdminGoogleFrog
29 days ago
I'm still not convinced you've found an uncounterable strategy. Has everyone forgotten how little damage Dagger deals compared to other raiders? Commanders are much safer vs Dagger than other raiders and LLT is much better, CHrankAdminDeinFreund had a fairly passive commander and no LLT.

This could be a particular of the mirror match since Mace and Halberd are comparatively poor against Dagger for units of their respective classes.
+1 / -0


JPrankgajop
28 days ago
quote:
what you need to do is win against GF with daggers and then, change will happen :)

Can confirm. I won one game and ZK got hotfixed :p
+1 / -0


unknownrankSnuggleBass
28 days ago
Uncounterable? Probably not. People are still adjusting and I expect dagger spam representation to go down.

LLT was something I thought would limit daggers, but at critical mass they're just dead like everything else.

The main things I see improving match-ups vs. hover are:

1) Adjusting starting build orders to have more army earlier. People are still making workers first, and then when 5 daggers show up and kill your two raiders they think the daggers are OP. Once people play safer the dagger advantage will be less pronounced.

2) Baiting shots. Building solars in locations that bait the first volley will considerably reduce the damage that daggers can do. I've seen this time and time again, and I think people will become more and more cognisant of it over time. Daggers are a hell of a lot worse when they're denied their initial volley.
+1 / -0



CHrankAdminDeinFreund
28 days ago
(edited 28 days ago)

quote:
1) Adjusting starting build orders to have more army earlier. People are still making workers first, and then when 5 daggers show up and kill your two raiders they think the daggers are OP. Once people play safer the dagger advantage will be less pronounced.

That actually yields me the most success against daggers. There's no way you can play offensive with slower raiders that get picked apart by a steadily reinforcing dagger ball. Keep your raiders at safety and make sure daggers pay for any attack. Meanwhile expand your economy faster than the enemy as you have to invest less in raiders. Use small offensive raider groups to force the dagger player to keep moving instead of harassing you and to disallow naked expansion.

quote:
2) Baiting shots. Building solars in locations that bait the first volley will considerably reduce the damage that daggers can do. I've seen this time and time again, and I think people will become more and more cognisant of it over time. Daggers are a hell of a lot worse when they're denied their initial volley.
Good dagger micro means microing your first volley, so this isn't guaranteed to work. It does make the dagger player's life a lot harder though so if you can pull it off, it definitely helps.

The main problem when fighting dagger offensives is that you can't counterraid on flat maps, meaning the enemy will simply naked expand to victory. On maps with more interesting terrain, this is avoided due to the added ability to outmaneuver daggers.
+1 / -0


CArankAdminShadowfury333
28 days ago
Casted on YouTube

Maybe just something to deal with Dagger alpha.
+0 / -0


unknownrankSnuggleBass
28 days ago
The whole unit is just speed and alpha (and to a lesser extent, piercing). If it doesn't have those things it has no identity. Worse yet, if hover goes from early game raider supremacy to not, they could become unplayable. Scalpel is hard to counter, but a large part of this is that opponents can't possibly have raider superiority over you. If that were to change, they'd still be an objectively good unit, but probably not good enough to carry the factory.

quote:
Good dagger micro means microing your first volley, so this isn't guaranteed to work. It does make the dagger player's life a lot harder though so if you can pull it off, it definitely helps.

The main problem when fighting dagger offensives is that you can't counterraid on flat maps, meaning the enemy will simply naked expand to victory. On maps with more interesting terrain, this is avoided due to the added ability to outmaneuver daggers.


Yeah, it's not about winning the fight necessarily, so much as making it so an opponent can't pick it. A lotus with a solar in front of it suddenly takes 2+ volleys, and starts making cost again, whereas atm it'll just get Lanchestered.
+0 / -0


EErankAdminAnarchid
28 days ago
(edited 28 days ago)

quote:
Commanders are much safer vs Dagger

I'm not sure this is so reliable. Two doom bricks is a pretty small investment.

quote:
A lotus with a solar in front of it suddenly takes 2+ volleys, and starts making cost again, whereas atm it'll just get Lanchestered.

Return fire can be toggled with a hotkey.
+0 / -0


AUrankAquanim
28 days ago
I find it hard to believe that a commander can't dig to safety against two Halberds.
+0 / -0


EErankAdminAnarchid
28 days ago
(edited 28 days ago)

Surely this defense will work not much worse against 3.2 speed Halberds than it works against 3.0 speed Bandits, and slightly better than it does against 3.7 speed Scorchers.

However, this also suggests that the Halberd's threat to the commander is comparable to those options.

Which was the essence of my point: Hovers do have a very cheap and very fast option to threaten a commander. Just because it's not the Dagger doesn't mean you should consider yourself safe.
+0 / -0




AUrankAdminGoogleFrog
28 days ago
EErankAdminAnarchid I doubt two Halberds can kill a Commander and it's not that relevant to my point. Massed Dagger cannot turn into a dead Commander in the same way that Scorchers can and Dagger is even pretty poor compared to more standard raiders. If your opponent makes two Halberds then you are up by 480 metal in something that you want. The Halberds are more of a sunk cost compared to Scorcher because they do a very particular thing and you also know what they are attempting when you spot them.
+0 / -0