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Title: MM 16682: 1v1, Rank Neutron Star
Host: Nobody
Game version: Zero-K v1.6.12.0
Engine version: 104.0.1-287-gf7b0fcc
Started: 5 years ago
Duration: 17 minutes
Players: 2
Bots: False
Mission: False
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Team 1
Chance of victory: 57.2%

EErankAdminAnarchid
Team 2
Chance of victory: 42.8%

USrankAdminSteel_Blue
Spectators
GBrank[Fx]Drone
USrankAerithlynn

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5 years ago
Jumpers so needed that buff
+0 / -0


5 years ago
Why are Bandits so slow? :(

[Spoiler]

You talking about the Constable buff?
+0 / -0


5 years ago
I was ahead in useless shield army which could do precisely nothing against superior jump guys.
+2 / -0

5 years ago
Jumpers needed the buff that let you throw away a faster army against its large metal investment counter, repeatedly exactly misjudging how to deal with it? Then still managing to basically tie up the game then resign?

Or did Jumpers need the buff to only lose the early game several-fold?

They got at least as nerfed as they got buffed, between puppies that dont target air as well, and moderators that no longer 2-shot ravens.
+1 / -0


5 years ago
EErankAdminAnarchid: The Constable buff wasn't why you lost this one though (your bandit happily crashed USrankAdminSteel_Blue's eco and his constable army died horribly to actual riot units).
It was using Felons against a Jugglenaught rather than Rogues or Racketeer spam (Jugglenaught vs Felons is a very hard counter).*
Bait out the jump with a pair of Rogues then move in another half dozen from a couple of angles.
Or three Racketeers and some bandits to mop up.

If your opponent rushes a heavy unit (to the point when that single unit is more than half your entire army size) then you will might need to spend a bit to come up with a specific counter if you don't already have it.

* Doubt anyone would blame you for not realizing at the time that you needed to keep your army running away until you had a Juggle counter, it's not a common interaction and there are so many other counters to be aware of (as I'm reminded every game when someone pulls out something I don't know the counter for).
+3 / -0
TBH i'm not sure how much rogue works. Maybe i'll try that next time. You've suggested fielding 2 for bait plus 6 in reserve, in response to a force that pushes you and kills your economy, and rogues aren't fast. And he can get a Firewalker for less cost than the rogues cost (and in fact did get one in this game).

Bandits absolutely don't work, it takes jugglenaut less then a second to destroy one. Of course, you can disable it, but racketeers are fairly garbage recently ime. I find it good that they're like that; i hated it when it was practical to stall games by deploying dozens of racketeers and forever making any striders useless. And Thunderbird seems quite single-use against mods and jugs.

So far the approach of "don't let it lay eggs" seemed also productive for me ( Multiplayer B657647 2 on Intersection v4.1 , Multiplayer B658129 2 on Eye of Horus v13). Ironically even with the buff, it's super-early harassment with very light units that still puts the pain onto jump.

Constable buff was not that causal here. The observation "needed that buff" is about jumper mid-late game being terrifyingly strong against everything which is not spiders. Placeholder is more to blame here.
+0 / -0


5 years ago
When jumper late game comes out facswitch for Penes
+0 / -0

5 years ago
It´s my feeling aswell that jumpers are very very strong mid-game, wich is why i have my doubts about the recent changes to constable. I think one root of the problem is the ideal of every fac being viable as starting-fac. If all factories are equally strong in the early game, the would have to be perfectly balanced in the later stages as well, wich we know they are not currently. I personally would find that to be boring tho. I liked the idea of tanks and jumpers as quasi switch-to-factories, as it gives a bit more colour to the game.
+1 / -0


5 years ago
EErankAdminAnarchid:
Econ killing wasn't be too much of a concern given how slow the Jugglenaught is and the fact that it and placeholders aren't very effective against buildings. :D

Actually that reminds me, what was your reasoning for making three Felons? A Felon's limiting factor is very rarely its (obscene) DPS, but generally its shield charge. I can't imagine what possible realistic unit combination jump could field that would need 2400 dps.
I'd have gone for a Felon, an Aspis and a pair of thugs instead of three Felons if I was sure I'd be facing mostly raiders and riots. Probably have put a few Rogues too to fend off skirmishers and because Rogues are dirt cheap.
+0 / -0
quote:
Actually that reminds me, what was your reasoning for making three Felons? A Felon's limiting factor is very rarely its (obscene) DPS, but generally its shield charge. I can't imagine what possible realistic unit combination jump could field that would need 2400 dps.
I'd have gone for a Felon, an Aspis and a pair of thugs

I made Felons to outrange Moderators while not being extra vulnerable to Pyro/Puppy. Thugs are entirely useless against Jump, so they are only good as a shield charge source and are otherwise a liability in combat. I figured i'd just use convicts for that.

The one Felon i made seemed enough to melt half the health off the Juggernaut. Maybe it would have been better with thugs and aspises, but my feeling here is that it would just be pulled away and killed in isolation; and if that happens anyway, then three felons deal three times the damage.

I don't feel that Bandits are any good attacking against Pyros, so i'm not sure i could have used bandit-rogue as a way to beat pyro-placeholder-moderator. I guess in hindsight a few wouldn't hurt, just to annoy the enemy with the RNG.
+0 / -0


5 years ago
Musings:

I wasn't thinking of the mixed felon+aspis+thug+rogue army being better against Juggernaught, I was just wondering under what circumstances 3 felons are needed.pull a felon that has an escorting (G)uarding it.
I was indeed thinking of thugs as a source of shield charge as they have better shieldhp/cost than the convict and more importantly they transfer shield a fair bit faster and have almost double the shield regen rate. Though I was mostly thinking of them as some protect for attacks from within the Aspis shield bubble.

I hadn't thought of just how close the moderator and Felon ranges are... I guess DPS really starts to matter when it's only a 15 elmo difference.
Though when I tried sandboxing it, I found that 3 Felons (1860) only barely scrape a win vs 6 moderators (1440) and one died, while the mixed ball (1 felon+1 aspis+2 thug+2 rogue=1820m) got a much more comfortable win (no losses) and became combat effective more quickly afterwards.

From my testing Felons generally do around 2-3k damage to the Juggle before getting mulched and so are very cost inefficient.
My mixed shield ball did a bit better but also died. Though at least with the latter if your enemy miscalculates or you see them coming you can do some rogue skirmishing.

At this point I was thinking "Hmm... Shield seems to lack a good counter to Jugglenaught."
Then I remembered Dirtbags are a thing. :D
Reckon spamming a line of Dirtbags (with the occasional Rogue) at that Juggle would have worked?
+0 / -0
Dirtbags have abysmal dps and are very susceptible to Placeholder especially when bunched up, which they need to do in order to apply their abysmal dps at their abysmal range.
+0 / -0


5 years ago
The idea is that the dirtbags do damage when the Juggle smashes them into itself (which is the main way it attacks*) not via DPS. Each dirtbag will do ~600 damage that way.

* A Juggle that's pushing is a mostly harmless Juggle that you can pound with Rogues.
+1 / -0