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Zero-K v1.1.7.0 - Air Update

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10 years ago
Meanwhile, the Unit Guide and the Advanced Unit Guides should be updated. Some units aren't there, some stats are outdated...
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10 years ago
I have played a couple of games, and i have to say this update is brilliant. Gunships are no longer shits and are used a lot, and it's much more entertaining to see brawlers in actions instead of annoying stilettos.
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I don't mind the update but I think you missed one of the biggest problems, that of the chainsaw. The hacksaw and cobra didn't really need nerfs imho unless you were doing it preemptively to deal with the now weaker bombers.

Think about it, every turret has a specific role right?
LLT- light point defence
Defender- superlight aa and kills scouts
Stardust- riot anti spam
Faraday- emp and riot
HLT- Anti heavy and assault
Gauss- frontline artillery resistant point defence
Pene-anti strider (which it doesn't really do due to rediculous range)
DDM- medium range fortress
Hacksaw- anti bomber
Razor- front-line artillery resistant aa
Cobra- Anti-gunship and late game air spam
Screamer- AA artillery/ air area denial

So where does chainsaw fit in?
Chainsaw is long range like mini screamer, at a third the price.
Chainsaw has rapid rof so it can deal with swarms of weak units.
Chainsaw has high dps so it can deal with heavier air units.

What is the chainsaw's role? It doesn't really have one other than pwning all air as far as I can tell. I would remove it completely if I had a choice, to be honest.

Instead of chainsaw, buff cobra's aoe to specialize it and make it actually get built sometimes. It would work as a defence against things like avenger or gunship spam and dense clouds of bombers that hacksaw and screamer can't.

I'm a newby so take my opinion with a grain of salt though.
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http://zero-k.info/Battles/Detail/184060

The example of Takeover 0.1.0 battle.
The decided unit of choice (7 out of 10 votes) was:
Singularity in player boxes. Which was owned by @BlackRazor123 (west team) and DErankMoffmaster (east team) respectively.
The rest of the game progressed as normally.

The only non-fatal bug was found (and fixed already in trunk) that unit needs be <80% emped for capture process to be restarted.
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10 years ago
Chainsaw has very bad DPS for it's cost. It has 40% less DPS/cost than Razor's Kiss and that is usually cited as an AA turret with weak damage output. Chainsaw's role is to prevent fighter patrols in the area and prolonged use of gunships. It should kill a bomber if they move too far into it's range. In a head on assault Shadows will kill it for cost and Heavy Gunships will do very well for cost.

Chainsaw may need nerfs as it is designed to counter fighters and bombers (with support) so with the bomber nerfs it is probably too powerful. But I think it's role is decent as is.
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10 years ago
Okay, I guess you're probably right. Like I said, am newbie so very real chance I'm just mistaken.
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10 years ago
USrankJamuk , for a person which is relatively new to the game, your anaysis of the def structures above is pretty good. keep it up ! ;)
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10 years ago
Chainsaw still is the turret of choice because of its superior range. DPS is not that important if enemy air stays in range 2-3x longer and it covers 4x-9x more area.
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10 years ago
Really loving 1.1.7.x too :)

quote:
Chainsaw has very bad DPS for it's cost. It has 40% less DPS/cost than Razor's Kiss

That's not fair. Razor misses much more often and covers 1/3 of the area of Chainsaw. Also, because of insane range of Chainsaw it can easily be put away from front and under a shield. Very few ground units will be able to range the shield and air/gunships will struggle to take it out while being cut down. Screamer has the same issue but at least missiles co$t and can be baited.

FWIW (also a nab here) I feel there is one too many air defence structure.
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10 years ago
ya. chainsaw is on top of your list of options when you lack an air player or dont have air superiority to get area denial protection from bombers, support in an AA fighter battle in your favor, etc...
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10 years ago
quote:
Screamer has the same issue but at least missiles co$t and can be baited.

I don't think Screamer missiles have costed anything besides time, for a while now.

quote:
Chainsaw still is the turret of choice because of its superior range. DPS is not that important if enemy air stays in range 2-3x longer and it covers 4x-9x more area.

QFT
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10 years ago
Regarding Chainsaw, can we steal the sexy Chainsaw model from BAR?
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quote:
can we steal the sexy Chainsaw model from BAR?

Nope. But somebody could finish that one that was spotted on forums earlier:



... and actually even made it to game:



... all the while being potentally even more sexy without infringing on BAR and requiring their huge-ass atlas.

And even if it can't be finished, it could be published as-is perhaps, to allow other people to rehash it.
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10 years ago
Chainsaw seems fine to me, could be a little bit cheaper though, but it's range is really something. When i play air, chainsaws always deny my area of effectiveness a lot, and it's not easy to bring it down either.
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Skasi
10 years ago
I already suggested that some time ago, but it fits here very well:

Merge Defender, Hacksaw, Razor, Cobra, Chainsaw and Screamer into 4 or 5 units. Some of them are very similar, for example defender/hacksaw (high alpha) and chainsaw/screamer (long range) and razor/cobra (high dps). I understand that they are all a bit different and none of them are the same, but theres just soooo much dedicated anti-air stuff (5 statics, 11 units!!, some weapons on other units).

Among others, one reason I started playing CA very actively was the design goal "allow weapons to target any unit, if it makes sense". The number of dedicated units should be reduced, not increased.
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Decreasing number of dedicated units might lead people to using tactics like massing one type of unit, and that's something that i wouldn't like to see. I don't agree with Hacksaw being same as defender, they're completely other kind of buildings. However, i feel like Cobra is kind of unneeded. I almost never build it, maybe because of it's mediocrity, when i don't need a lot of AA i just go for razor or two when it's required, and when i do need lots of AA i just go for chainsaw.
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Think cobra is over-nerfed (in the past)? I rarely see it too. Though I think it aims better than razor kiss. But it's easier to kill for land units.
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Cobra has a very niche role: quickly mowing down invading plane swarms that go for your singu on Speedmetal.

Everything else is done better by other turrets - and if you insist on having a high-dps flak in your posession, copperhead is always better, because at least it can compensate for the mediocre range and low survivability with its ability to move.

It has nothing do do with 5% dps reduction. It's a role issue.
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Skasi
10 years ago
Cobra's great to protect your base from bombers too. It has always been, but it is extremely good now that bomber's weight has been decreased, 'cause it needs more bombers and they all have less HP, so aoe is super-efficient and usually enemy bombers will come in big big stacks so as to take less damage from silly Chainsawspam.
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EErankAdminAnarchid and Skasi uses skill: detailed explanation.

It's super effective.
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