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Back after 3 months, what have I missed?

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9 years ago
Last online: September 5th, 2014
So, after 3 months of not opening spring at all, and then 30 minutes of downloading chatlogs for #zk and #zkdev (enough to make Weblobby take ~565MB), I see that not much has changed. Spring 98.0 has come out, but for some absurd reason we're still using 91.0 for the default matches. Please, for the love of God, tell me that you've at least fixed the desync errors in 91.0; otherwise we still don't really have any version that works 100% of the time for everyone. I still remember insisting that 97.0 runs as fast as 91.0 on my computer, and although the lag bugs didn't seem to show up for everyone, iirc Licho was having lag issues for 97.0, so you should have at least had someone available to lag testing without complaining.
I've also noticed that neither the steam group page, nor the steam greenlight page for ZK have been touched by any name that I vaguely recognize since august. The most recent poll was on this topic, and had results similar to what I'd expect, but I don't see why any change to ZKLobby would need to restrict it to steam without any standalone version.
Also, I realize I should have properly reported this bug 3 months ago, but when running ZKLobby in mono on linux I am unable to scroll down all the way in the players list in #zk and other rooms, the last names are below the furthest I can scroll, and I can see one that is partly cut off most of the time. This problem becomes worse when the size of the window is increased for some reason, i.e. I can scroll down to names starting with U when windowed, but only down to names starting with T when the window is fullscreened.

So, I'd like to ask what bugs in 98.0 are currently blocking you from updating, even after all this time; And if these bugs are still valid, is 91.0 actually playable now? (I personally don't count desyncs 5-10% of the time as "playable")
+0 / -0
quote:
So, after 3 months of not opening spring at all, and then 30 minutes of downloading chatlogs for #zk and #zkdev (enough to make Weblobby take ~565MB)

Enjoy your new trojans! :D


quote:
I've also noticed that neither the steam group page, nor the steam greenlight page for ZK have been touched by any name that I vaguely recognize since august.

Hmmm, maby because the devs dont feel like wasting time on making news on a platform that is not being used? Besides I have been complaining abaut it in #zkdev for some time already, to no avail.


quote:
Please, for the love of God, tell me that you've at least fixed the desync errors in 91.0

quote:
I still remember insisting that 97.0 runs as fast as 91.0 on my computer, and although the lag bugs didn't seem to show up for everyone, iirc Licho was having lag issues for 97.0, so you should have at least had someone available to lag testing without complaining.

quote:
So, I'd like to ask what bugs in 98.0 are currently blocking you from updating, even after all this time; And if these bugs are still valid, is 91.0 actually playable now? (I personally don't count desyncs 5-10% of the time as "playable")

There has beeen this: http://zero-k.info/Forum/Thread/10027 wich is basically a great benchmarking project that has in mind comparing 91 and 98. Googlefrog is now stripping now gadgets to remake them into 98 standarts wich would hopefully make ZK 98/99 applayable. This would also (propably/hopefully) fix desyncs as apperently gadgets are some sort of broken in 91.


I hope my answers were solid and comprehensive.
+2 / -0
quote:
The most recent poll was on this topic, and had results similar to what I'd expect, but I don't see why any change to ZKLobby would need to restrict it to steam without any standalone version.

To elaborate, CZrankAdminLicho is adding proper quickmatching queues (rather than the clumsier room juggling system of before). However, because Steam has an API that handles matchmaking properly, there was some discussion about whether it would be better to just use the Steam API and not bother with Uberserver anymore. As expected, that isn't happening, and the queues being implemented as dummy rooms is still the direction things seem to be headed (for compatibility with other lobbies).
+1 / -0
9 years ago
Benchmark results uploaded. How are the desyncs now? Are they still happening daily?
+0 / -0
9 years ago
quote:
then 30 minutes of downloading chatlogs for #zk and #zkdev

Please tell me how to do that!

quote:
I still remember insisting that 97.0 runs as fast as 91.0 on my computer

There appears to be a trend between the brand of hardware (i.e. Intel vs AMD) versus the degree of improvement or reduction when using 98.

quote:
How are the desyncs now? Are they still happening daily?

Yes, but usually on specific maps, independant of playercount.
Yes, but only if specific players are in the game; it is always the same guys who desync first, independant of playercount.
The rate of desyncs with neither of those involved is well below 5%.

It's a shame that ZK does not locally permanently store pertinent information when desyncs occur, or automatically upload that information to some central site to allow for tracking of which players and what maps experience the most desyncs.

Is such information storage and uploading against some ethical principle?
+0 / -0
Skasi
quote:
Please tell me how to do that!

PM these to Nightwatch
!subscribe #zk
!subscribe #zkdev
!subscribe #zktop20
!subscribe #whateverelseyouwanttosubscribeto
+0 / -0

9 years ago
quote:
Yes, but usually on specific maps, independant of playercount.

Playercount does seem to have an effect. Not sure if directly or only indirectly. I've probably played over 800 duels and I recall 0 desyncs in all of them. There might have been one a very long time ago, but I'm not 100% sure it was a duel. Meanwhile some who play large games have recently been complaining about desyncs quite often.
+0 / -0
Skasi
I don't recall ever having desynced in 2v2s either. Maybe Springiee could somehow tag replays as "game desynced", then statistics could be created from all recorded games.
+2 / -0
9 years ago
quote:
I've probably played over 800 duels and I recall 0 desyncs in all of them.

It happens sometimes. The last one I can remember was months ago (8? 12?). I vaguely remember that it was me vs klon on avalanche using 91.0.
+0 / -0
Good idea about the desynced battle tag, Skasi. Making it visible on the battle page would also be useful.
+0 / -0
quote:
Playercount does seem to have an effect. Not sure if directly or only indirectly. I've probably played over 800 duels and I recall 0 desyncs in all of them. There might have been one a very long time ago, but I'm not 100% sure it was a duel. Meanwhile some who play large games have recently been complaining about desyncs quite often.


Assuming it's individual players causing/having desync, then of course player count scales the amounts of desync occuring.
Keep in mind that 10x as many players not only means 10x as high of a chance for a desync, but also 10x as many players being affected by it.

In other words, the chance to witness a desync grows quadratically with game size.
+0 / -0
Skasi
Um actually, even more. 10x as many players means 10x as many actions, each of which might cause a desync. So there you have it, chance to witness a desync = playernumber^3. It's probably not exactly that because for example two people doing one action that cause a desync still only leads to one desynced game.

Sooo [sillymath] aka neonstorming
01v01 ... 02^3 = 8 out of x games desync
02v02 ... 04^3 = 64
04v04 ... 08^3 = 512
08v08 ... 16^3 = 4096
16v16 ... 32^3 = 32768 out of x games desync

Since your regular big teams game is ~10v10 and according to some people every other game desyncs
10v10 ... 20^3 = 8000 of x games desync
For every 2nd game to desyncs x = 16000
Or every 2000th 1v1 and every 250th 2v2 desync.[/sillymath]
+0 / -0

9 years ago
arrrrggg! what have you done? now everyone gets quadratical!
+0 / -0

9 years ago
Ban the desyncer's
+0 / -2
why? couldn't you just fix the issue causing the desync? or... hell when the person does desync set their army to an AI for a bit until they have synced back up?
+0 / -0
Skasi
9 years ago
quote:
until they have synced back up

honk?
+0 / -0
9 years ago
AFAIK it's impossible to correct simulation after desyncing. It only gets worse with time.
+1 / -0
Might I ask what the numbers in the benchmark results mean? I'm assuming that "speedy dt" indicates how much lag there is, in which case I'm still getting most lag on 98, but less noticeably than GoogleFrog is.

EDIT: Wait, Skasi, why do you have 5GB of ram?
+0 / -0
Skasi
9 years ago
@Anarchblah1, yes.

Benchmark isn't really needed, we played a 3v3 testgame on CCR and all or most players had performance issues and other bugs. The biggest problem is probably LoS map turning black on certain maps for some people on F1/F2, or becoming brighter and brighter until it's white for other people. Second biggest problem for me is units randomly deciding to move into the top left corner and other pathing issues. Third are FPS drops.
+0 / -0

9 years ago
data >> anecdotes
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