Loading...
  OR  Zero-K Name:    Password:   

Balance suggestions

54 posts, 1726 views
Post comment
Filter:    Player:  
Page of 3 (54 records)
sort

9 years ago
I understand that balance isn't the focus with the eventual Steam release in mind, but nevertheless there are some things that have bothered me about balance for a while, hence this post.

My opinion is that the main shortcomings in unit balance concern static defenses and air. Ground balance seems good with only occasional problems. I will not discuss sea balance in this post and anybody is free to make a separate thread for that.

I suggest the following changes to static defenses:
- Defender cost up by about 10 metal.
- Lotus cost up by about 5 metal.
- Gauss cost down by about 50 metal.
Defense spam is overly powerful and I feel like ZK is much more defense heavy than some other decent RTS games. Both Lotus and Defender are too spammable and quite strong in numbers. Gauss is just bad and could cost less.

Suggested changes to planes:
- Raven HP down by ~5-10%
- Swift AA missile reload time up by ~15-20%
Ravens are overly powerful against both ground AA and gunships. Swifts are overly powerful against flying AA. Keep in mind I suggest these changes in combination with the Defender cost increase, which is one of the main air deterrents right now.

Suggested changes to ground units:
- Dart turret turn rate up by a significant amount
- Ravager projectile velocity up by 5-10
- Wolverine nerf
- Sumo buff
- Skuttle decloak distance down a bit
Dart is weak compared to Flea. Ravager has been weak compared to other assaults since it was last nerfed. Wolverine is too generalist and hard/expensive to counter. Sumo is underwhelming and Skuttle decloaks too easily.

I didn't go much into detail with justifying every change as the post would simply end up being too long. I can do that in the comments if requested.
+5 / -0
add to that list:
-funnels decloack with drohnes. if this is the issue with skuttle, i would better do something there, at my opinion skuttle decloak is okish. drohne insta-hit with 100% accuracy is, what kills skuttle. suggestion: nerf drohne accuracy. as i hear funnel will lose its 2nd shield, this combination there must be discussed.

-raven rocket velocity decrease, so its better vs statics, not vs raiders or striving gunships. i would prefer this instead of your suggested nerfs to raven.

-yes to defender/lotus nerf/ gauss buff

-did you EVER use quake? i demand. again. give it impulse or shit. maybe even negative licho impulse for units crush themself with each other.

-is swift missle AOE still present? remove it

-sumo is a noobtrap with the newtons. hillarious, but a noobtrap.
+1 / -0
Skasi
9 years ago
I like that list, EErank[ISP]Lauri. I think the Dart buff would need serious testing though, it might make them too powerful in the early game, they're already some sort of mini-Daggers with their burst against Glaives.
+0 / -0

9 years ago
Skasi
Indeed. As long as there's somebody to test with, I'm up for balance testing on the test host.

DErankAdminmojjj
Interesting point about Quake. I have never used that in a serious game. I guess there have been a few cases in which it would have been useful though.

The main thing about Ravens that I dislike is how difficult it is for ground AA to make cost against them. The way you can keep bombing the supposed counter units and keep making cost or trading nearly equally seems a bit too much.
+1 / -0

9 years ago
A big part if the problem with defenders is just how they're your main counter to air, because building them doesn't mean its an investment that's useless vs ground. The dedicated nature of as is one of the things that makes air so powerful.

Sumo and skuttle are imo not that balance critical. Dart change is mostly an ease of use thing if that's a problem and I agree veh play should be ravager based not wolverine based.

Quake is counter to terraform. You'll see more quakes when you see more terraform. Try it in castles ffa or to unburrow a detri.
+0 / -0
9 years ago
AUrankAdminSaktoth No one unburrows a detri; they vindicator the detri every time!

EErank[ISP]Lauri Bombers trading evenly with ground AA is fine. Why? Because Raven's true power is in critical mass raven attacks, and even trading with an offensively bombing air player is enough to prevent ravens from reaching critical mass.
This comment is in reference to mobile AA protecting mobile forces, not in reference to static AA protecting static buildings.
In reference to static AA and base protection, i agree that there are some serious imbalances, but these imbalances are (procedural?) as a result of un-intelligent targeting by static AA defenses.

I am currently working on a widget to give static AA intelligent targeting to insure maximum raven carnage and maximum ignoring of distracting gnats/drones/swifts, as a key precursor to my "Universal Automatic Split Attack Optimization Widget" which i am worried will over-automate everything and break the game. I'll start another thread to discuss this issue.
+0 / -0

9 years ago
quote:
The main thing about Ravens that I dislike is how difficult it is for ground AA to make cost against them. The way you can keep bombing the supposed counter units and keep making cost or trading nearly equally seems a bit too much.


That's because defenders are -broken-. Defenders are perfectly capable of killing ravens, however since they don't shoot half the time if they shoot at all ravens just walk right over them. I've seen a lot of cases where defenders do nothing while the ravens fly up and bomb things and then try to attack the ravens -after- they've already made cost. Trying to balance defenders when they're so obviously broken is pointless in general.

Also, razors are useless and can barely hit anything. Cobras can actually make cost vs bombers even if you only have 1-2 of them, but they're kind of expensive for being the only AA that actually works.

As far as that other stuff, there are too many issues to even begin with. Striders that aren't funnels are a noob trap. Jumpfac in total is a noob trap (and you didn't bother to mention how utterly useless moderators are or how jumps get raped by skirms or how they have no real riot etc etc; to hell with sumo). Gunships are a noob trap unless you're doing some horrendous cheese. And just to make all that worse, instead of making weak facs stronger the current approach to balancing is to nerf everything until every unit becomes a sumo (or the even more elusive scorpion). Real balance means there are zero useless units and no factories that can't be used solo, and ZK does not have this.
+0 / -0
Skasi
quote:
I've seen a lot of cases where defenders do nothing while the ravens fly up and bomb things

I have seen aliens and ghosts, but nobody believes me because they want proof. :(
Do you have proof, USrankaeonios?

(also note that Defenders has a ~9s reload time after firing its 3 missiles)
+2 / -0

9 years ago
RUrankAuto
Is the true power of the raven in giant raven deathstacks? I don't see that...
What does it gain from deathstacking that other units don't?

@Aeonios
Jumpers are noob fac? How so?
+1 / -0
Skasi
9 years ago
quote:
What does it gain from deathstacking that other units don't?

@Flaccid, keep in mind that other units get more drawbacks from being spammed, they are more limited by space and chokepoints, many units can't shoot over others, they are more limited by range. Air units aren't really limited by range like other units are, they don't have any real problems with space and don't have to deal with chokepoints, the only drawback is that they take more damage from flak when clustered and even that is little compared to ground armies dying to skuttles, roaches, regular riots and similar.
+0 / -0


9 years ago
quote:
Defenders are perfectly capable of killing ravens

It takes 4 defenders for 320 metal to kill one 300 metal Raven.

That doesn't sound too perfect until you start considering that the same cost in Gremlins has no hope of killing a raven and a lot of chance of getting killed.

Defenders are more cost-effective as AA than Gremlins.
+0 / -0

9 years ago
Something is definitely wrong that the dedicated AA turrets are all rarely able to make cost against air units, it defies common sense.

I agree with most of Lauri's changes except Lotus and Wolverine nerf. I think one reason people perhaps feel cheap porc is too effective is because they aren't dealing with it the way they are supposed to, there's plenty of anti porc units like ravager than can roll over LLTs like nothing
+0 / -0

9 years ago
quote:
(also note that Defenders has a ~9s reload time after firing its 3 missiles)


Seriously? Maybe that should be a -documented- reload time then. Defender says 1.2 reload, so I assume it's supposed to work like a slasher.

quote:
Jumpers are noob fac? How so?


Not 'noob fac', 'noob trap'. Jumps have no real skirmisher, no real riot (since pyros are fragile and also friendly fire everything to death), moderators are -useless- compared to any other unit in a similar niche (what is moderator even supposed to be?), and jacks are as difficult to use well as they are expensive. Sumo is icing on the cake, or maybe a very awkward cherry on top.

Placeholders also don't really synergize well with any jump units except maybe -maybe- puppies, and I don't see that as a combo that'd be likely to make cost very often.

I recall seeing a game, I think it was lauri vs klon, lauri opened jumps vs klon's shields iirc. However, after building a few moderators and getting no use from them lauri literally plopped a cloaky fac just to get something decent to use. Jumpfac has no 'middle', no units that can actually form a regular fighting force (or which work together well even basically), it's just a bunch of random specialty units.
+0 / -0
USrankaeonios
quote:
'noob trap'

Not sure where you got the idea that jumpers are weak. I wouldn't say they are any weaker than say cloakies or shieldbots. Sumo is probably bad, but the rest of the lineup is great. Pyros are the all-round bread and butter unit that tends to beat other raiders. What they don't beat (Warrior, Zeus, Leveler for example) gets usually minced by Moderators.
quote:
Placeholders also don't really synergize well with any jump units except maybe -maybe- puppies

They have excellent synergy with Pyro, Jack, Skuttle and even Sumo.

I don't recall the game you mentioned. Do you have a replay?
+0 / -0

9 years ago
I think jumpies require high skill to make work, therefore not enough test subjects to demonstrate the real potential. Godde did some games where he proved they can go toe to toe with other labs but they definitely felt lacking, especially in the late game when pyros stop being so effective, sumo spam is not good enough. I think the lab has always lacked a reliable solid assault unit, I wouldn't describe pyros as "bread and butter" because they are really not a reliable spammable unit at all.
+0 / -0
Lauri that was a while ago, shadowfury covered that game though.

edit: it was on that map with the volcano in the center and the hill expansions in the corners, can't remember the name of that either. >.<

Re: placeholders.. they sort of synergize with jacks, but jacks that get sucked into a placeholder field also get punished by whatever enemy units also got sucked in. Unless those units are slashers, anyway. I've never actually seen them used with pyros so I don't know if they actually work well or not. It seems to me you'd have a high risk of your pyro getting sucked in too, and pyros are not assaulty at all. Skuttles are too expensive to be used as riots like that. Sumo maybe, but with its current newton guns it would just interfere with the placeholders. I'm surprised you didn't say firewalkers, which probably are not a bad combo but they're expensive and the long cooldown is not beneficial with placeholders.

Also, pyros aren't spammable, not because of cost, but because a mob of pyros is a suicide platoon. I found that out the hard way. :P
+0 / -0
I don't think units in range of Jack are usually thought of as the ones doing the punishing. All placeholder does here is make sure they can't run away and Jack can dish out the punishing.

For Pyros, Placeholder means enemy units are guaranteed to be clumped, which in turn means they get multihit.

Both Pyros and Jacks can jump out of the black hole, ignoring its pull.

There's a lot of synergy of the nicest kind going on here.

To end this derailment, i agree with the premise of the original post. Also #sonarlives and halberds are stupid.
+0 / -0
USrankaeonios
Whether Pyros kill each other or not depends on how they are used. If they are well enough micromanaged they won't kill each other. Killing each other when mismanaged is a disadvantage that is more than compensated with their general strength against other raiders and units.
+0 / -0

9 years ago
The huge challenge is that some labs are more n00b-friendly than others. Imho, that's the biggest problem with the Shieldbot lab - it's not OP, but it's so easy to shieldbot well.
+0 / -0

9 years ago
Note that I haven't played much in the last month or so, but I think tanks could use some tweaking. I'd be interested to see what would happen if banisher was lower weight, for instance.
+1 / -0
Page of 3 (54 records)