Loading...
  OR  Zero-K Name:    Password:   

When to spam caretakers instead of singus

45 posts, 2310 views
Post comment
Filter:    Player:  
Page of 3 (45 records)
sort
Skasi
TL;DR: At ~30 to 40 energy per 1 metal from overdrive, depending on how much you value their buildpower.

With caretaker spam getting more common these days I just added caretakers (and different versions of windgens) to my magical overdrive table (inspired by ddaba/Kyubey) to show their metal production efficiency compared to other energy sources in combination with overdrive. I felt the urge to share this information to protect my head from facepalming while spectating future games.

If the table below is not clear, read this:
[Spoiler]
(click image for larger version)

Note that numbers given are rounded and do not account for energy cost for building construction. Also note that because of how overdrive works, wind generators' efficiency is slightly below their average output, except when the average is 2.5.

To answer the question: the exact number is 40.25 energy per 1 metal gained from overdrive (according to wolfram). That's when Singularities and Caretakers both take 715.555.. seconds or ~12 minutes to pay back. Energy:metal ratios of grids can be estimated by looking at their colors in eco-view. For exact numbers check out the tooltips of buildings connected to the grid.

Finally, of course this is not an "ultimate guide to ecoing". There's many more things to consider: Solars have hp, Singularities explode, Caretakers have buildpower, cheaper buildings complete faster and produce earlier, just to name a few examples. As such the number can probably be rounded down to somewhere between 30 and 40, perhaps even lower. The table above is merely supposed to provide a few numbers people might be interested in and to maybe give players a few new ideas.
+11 / -0

8 years ago
Yay! I do love your chart, and I downloaded your first one actually. However, I don't understand why the caretakers don't have a constant 'seconds to pay back metal cost' because the mechanic is not overdrive and AFAIK is completely unaffected by the grid as a whole. Shouldn't it be (220m)/(.3m/s)=733.333s all the way down?
+0 / -0
Skasi
Yes 733.333 is the time they'd take if you only count their metal production, however they produce energy as well. Now, even if their energy output can not be directly converted into metal via overdrive, it's still available. That means other energy sources like solars do not have to spend their energy output on shields, cloak, construction, etc. and can instead add their energy to overdrive.

In other words, the times shown for caretakers are only correct as long as you have sufficient energy available for overdrive through other structures. I decided against simply writing "733" because having energy available for OD is very likely to be the case in your "average", non-crazy game.

Side note: Your energy bar blinks if you "waste" energy. "Waste" is a number shown in the bar's mouseover tooltip and only exists if your team's energy storages are full and you produce more energy than can be consumed by overdrive and other things, which means you need to connect your pink grids (or use more energy via cloak/shields/repair/resurrection).
+2 / -0

8 years ago
That... is a next level I wasn't even thinking of. It also makes a lot of sense.
+0 / -0


8 years ago
Could you add Tidals to the chart?
+0 / -0

8 years ago
Use Fusion for Tidals (error is ~2%).
+0 / -0
Skasi
8 years ago
Yup, "Windgens' average output is close to the Fusion to Mohogeo range." and tidal is pretty much a windgen on lowest possible average, thus a Fusion. I'm afraid of adding more columns because the table already looks a bit messy at first glance as is and I don't want to scare away people before they even take a closer look. If anybody has an idea on how to make the table feel less overwhelming/chaotic please let me know. Should I just remove a few rows or perhaps try to draw a graph of some sort?
+0 / -0
Graph sounds great, plot the buildings' curves on a color to time-to-make-cost, with color on bottom and tine- on the left. does have problems with numbers ranging from small to 2,000, but it would be cool to see logarithmic curves and such. I'm a fan of math I'm not used to. Also, even though I want to see something like this now, I have no plan of Forking your chart.

As is, I think it deserves to be in the Overdrive section of the Manual, just because it it very nice to know and the only 2 pictures there show fusions with old grid range(miss that) and a disconnected annihilator.
+1 / -0

8 years ago
This seems about right. Even in a big team game you should generally stop at orange, 15x. At about 20x it starts going red, IE "This is bad now". Red overdrive means "Stop overdriving" and it stops getting much redder at about 30x.

I think by the time you're getting to 40x, even in the silliest FFA's, it's time to attack/reclaim/get more mexes in your grid/etc rather than go "Oh, caretakers now!".
+0 / -0
Skasi
8 years ago
Actually, 40x is only for the income value. If you consider that buildpower has a high value too - especially in FFAs, the "real number" is probably lower. I'd say start spamming caretakers in FFAs as soon as you hit 20 to 30 energy per 1 metal. I've adjusted my initial post slightly to take that into account.
+0 / -0

8 years ago
You always want to build caretakers up to and probably beyond your buildpower, but there comes a point where excess buildpower is kind of useless. If you have targets for reclaim, repair, or can use up reclaim spurts from the battlefield sure, make more caretakers. But there comes a point where extra BP is worth very little (Though this is indeed another reason to have as much excess BP as is reasonable).
+0 / -0


8 years ago
Now we just need a gadget that informs you based on your current income which eco you should be spamming..
+0 / -0

8 years ago
I was going to ask that earlier myself, but the I thought that the OD grid colors actually do that...
+0 / -0


8 years ago
stil requires you to remember the grid or have it avaliable to look at ingame
+0 / -0
AUrankAdminSaktoth: I thought the point of spamming caretakers in FFA or what have you was for the minute metal income they give you, not for their buildpower. Is this mistaken?
+0 / -0

8 years ago
AUrankAdminAquanim Yes, at +40 energy per mex, which you should probably never hit. Before that you're balancing the diminishing utility of excess BP (for repair, reclaim, gluts, insurance) against the small income they give.

Skasi what's the payback time for energy at that level on a 2.0 mex? A single fusion (35e) powering a 2.0 metal extractor the empirical payback time seems to be about 7-8 minutes? That seems almost good in a large FFA actually.
+0 / -0

8 years ago
The people who can't read the table.
+1 / -0

8 years ago
So.. the conclusion is to just spam windgens?
+0 / -0
Skasi
8 years ago
Only when their minimal output is equal to their maximum: 2.5E-2.5E. Otherwise see When to spam windgens.
+0 / -0
Maybe it is important to note that Skasi's M is neither base metal rate nor total metal rate, but only OD metal rate, which depends on E itself. If n is the number of mexes, (m_1,...,m_n) their base metal rate vector and (e_1,...,e_n) the OD energy vector, Skasi's M=sum_(k=1)^(n)(sqrt(e_k)/4*m_k). So Skasi's payback time of metal cost (not energy cost) is time

cost/M

cost/E * E/M, where cost/E describes the energy production inefficiency and E/M the OD inefficiency. For Caretaker it is time

cost/(M+.3)

cost/(E/(E/M)+.3).

This is only as usefull as E/M is displayed ingame. If you want to calculate something for any specific situation however, you need to start from base metal rates.
+0 / -0
Page of 3 (45 records)