[2up]knorke Bug Discussion

quote: quote: Next step would be to use it better, like using the tagging system to mark bugs as "important" or "minor" or "nice to have." Hooray, sprunk added some labels to game-bugtracker. Infra-structure bugtracker would be more interessting though, since there seem to be the "blocking problems." quote: your tendency to make it about them as opposed to just something that needs fixing Yes, this is about people's behaviour. A player writes : "My music has gone" ( http://zero-k.info/Forum/Thread/20928 ) First reply is some youtube-music and fun comment. Bit fun is okay but see something wrong with that? Then someone posts a workaround to restart music playback. And usually that is where it ends: At workaround. Move it to 0 and back. Restart lobby. Delete config. Click it again. Use this other thing. Turn it off and on. ... If not fixed then the problem will reappear for other users. Too much mimimi when a player writes in strong language. ("X is shit because Z!!11") Someone wrote "shit" on the interweb, shocking. To some this forum a random internet place, it has no meaning to them like for longtime users. Ignore "shit", see if rest is useful. Most irritating is bug-denial. Like last week when suddendly people start to babble that the search actually works perfect. Not only forum but on bugtracker too. Despite that the fix was not live yet. Usage of bugtracker is questionable. For example closing a bug with reason: "Can not reproduce." Wtf. Do not close, ask for details! Also when the first reply is one year after initial report that is strange Oo Do devs not check it more often? Infra-bugtracker mixes everything. Lobby (lobbies?), homepage, forum, installer: All on one tracker. lol. Pro-tip: At bottom of page github displays pro-tips.

~ [2up]knorke

Split because the old thread had usefulness left in it. There are relevant posts in the previous thread. http://zero-k.info/Forum/Thread/20934

quote: Most irritating is bug-denial. Like last week when suddendly people start to babble that the search actually works perfect. Not only forum but on bugtracker too. Despite that the fix was not live yet.

I clearly said "forum search" and forum-search using the search bars that only pop up in the forum DOES WORK PERFECT. It's one of the best search options on a forum I know, it's actually fun to use compared to other forums' search options which usually end up annoying the hell out of me with useless results, awful displaying of information, stupid captchas and other bullshit.

You are talking about website-search, which I personally reported as broken. Why do you say "bug-denial" when I myself reported the bug?

Bug managment is definetely not in a good state. I think the most glaring offence is "I cannot reproduce" excuse. Sure you might not be able to but for example as in this case I was able to while I also gave a replay as a proof. Yet the issue is still closed just because.

Bug management could be improved a bit.

Though in my experience, it does not make sense to have bugs open for very long time, if they cannot be reproduced.
It may well be important but there is no way forward unless something changes.

- If developer encounters the bug -> great he can fix it. No need for ticket to be open though if it wasnt helpful in reproducing it initially.
- If some other player encounters the bug and he decides to report it, he wont search he will just create new ticket with or without repro steps.
- If original poster is able to reproduce, closing the ticket gives him known feedback is required. He can respond and ticket can be reopened if he does.

Nowhere it seems useful to keep ticket open forever ..

It would be useful if we had multiple people fixing those bugs and walking through them one by one. If however all devs failed to fix it -> close and wait for repro steps seems ok.

In past bugtracker we didn't close issues and we deleted like 300 of them when we ported to github..

Skasi :

quote: I clearly said "forum search" and forum-search using the search bars that only pop up in the forum DOES WORK PERFECT

However it was not about the 'search bars' (Filter: thingys)
https://github.com/ZeroK-RTS/Zero-K-Infrastructure/issues/871 reads: this is about the search input field in the top-right of zero-k.info and not about the forum's "Filter" input field.
And I also refered to the SEARCH with the looking-glass-icon and not to the two FILTER fields.

quote: I do not think the player-side is going to be done much better than it is now though. The only extra we would get out of players is: Better thread names. Infolog. Maybe a screenshot.

That would already be a good step.
Graphical bug = screenshot. Obvious!
If people can post screenshots in "ingame fails" thread they can post it as bugreport, too.
http://zero-k.info/Forum/Thread/1784?postID=150004#150004

Other things could be simple tests that most player can do:
-Press F5 to turn UI on/off
-Disable LuaUI / disable LuaRules
-How to cheat units, to reproduce situations (instead of 90min replays)
-widgets on/off etc, trying different settings
-In general signaling to players that bug reports are welcome/needed.
Not all players would do such things, but some would, especially those posting much.

It is not strictly only about bugs, but also noobtraps and such.

quote: Do you actually have a problem with the Zero-K repository bug tracker?

With the software? No.
With how it is used? Yes.
I had already posted on that during the move from google-code to github. (Maybe that worked a bit, because at least it is not that chaotic anymore)

quote: In past bugtracker we didn't close issues

Yes, was bad.

quote: The "My music has gone" bug seemed to be handled about as well as could be expected. What would have improved that situation?

No youtube music links.
Better awareness that if you know of a workaround for something then report it, so workaround will not be nessecary.
More people filtering forum posts to bugtracker.

quote: - If original poster is able to reproduce, closing the ticket gives him known feedback is required. He can respond and ticket can be reopened if he does. ... If however all devs failed to fix it -> close and wait for repro steps seems ok.

No, in both cases you set it to "Feedback needed."
If there is no feedback for a while AND no new reported cases THEN it can be closed it as "could not reproduce."
Otherwise you have situations as in https://github.com/ZeroK-RTS/Zero-K/issues/1091 where the ticket is closed, someone posts more details -- And nobody sees it.
(Do not say that it was re-opend. It was re-opend right now because Orfelius mentioned it in this thread. Before that nobody noticed it for 16 days)

quote: - If some other player encounters the bug and he decides to report it, he wont search he will just create new ticket with or without repro steps.

That is why you tell them to search before posting. (Not such a strange concept anyway) Shows why good titles/text matter: so they are found with search.

Imo it is also bugtracker misuse which leads to very strange assumptions about project status. Like the "release on steam in two weeks" posts. Or last month Licho posted something how the current lobby was good enough for release?! How do those assumptions happen? I can look in bugtracker see 234689 bugs, kinda know that many more probally went unreported. If it is not a bug but 'only' a missing feature then it is not not tracked at all.

don't point at my replies like they're representative lol. i'm a retarded clown

I think we did here's the link:

https://etherpad.wikimedia.org/p/Testing_Zero-k_Draft

just need revamp and port to our wiki

I can do it if you start the empty wiki page, post the link below and when I can be asked.

sorry for the non commitment but I have real life as well. I am on holiday at the moment, but not really free though.

I have not noticed any issues with imgur.com image hosting (pictures from years ago still up), and they appear to be doing just fine so it seems unlikely that images hosted there will disappear. Storage space is cheap.

I personally despise all those custom image uploading forms. Every service/software/site that wants to do it makes one from scratch, and they end up mediocre. Then you have to deal with all the security aspects...
I mean, why would you reimplement an image hosting service (because that's what it really is)? That sounds like a lot of development time for virtually zero gain to the people wanting to write wiki pages. We have lots of the latter and are short on the former...

Additionally, .webm is a thing.

Having the capability for people responsible for zero-k.info to host important images onsite is one thing and might well be clever. Having the capability for all users to store images onsite does not sound like a particularly good value proposition. It could be done but it does not sound like a priority.

Server has 3x300GB SSD but it can not host some hundred megabytes of pictures for manual?
Worried about cluttering it with too many unused files? Then use a wikisoftware that can give you a list of new uploaded files. Which is a feature of every wiki I know.
https://springrts.com/wiki/Special:NewFiles
Still worried about files clutter? Then view a list of unused files.
https://springrts.com/wiki/Special:UnusedFiles

"clever" ...There is nothing "clever", that is the normal way to do it.