I made new page in Wiki, called unit combos&tips.
I'm sleepy, so go ahead and start putting unit combos!
They can be serious, (Scalpel ball) or Wacky (Vindicator+Puppy) to outrighr ludricous (Roach+Aspis)
If the unit combo combines units from other factories e.g Amph+Spider list it down underneath: "Mixed" section
Free wiki pages
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🌟 I hope you didn't use colored text in the wiki. 🌟
👍 Also we should totally use ❤️ emoji ❤️ there. 👌
📯 Honk 🎷 honk! 🎺On a more serious note I don't think any game's wiki should be full of unit compositions, build orders or anything along those lines - least of all wacky ones. Those things should be limited to user created guides. The reason for this being that players should find their own play style and that any active multiplayer game's meta is ever evolving.
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Some general tips at best like mix Skirmishers with Riots with about 5-1 ratio.
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I'm not sure about explicitly stating ratios. Optimising composition is always in relation to what your opponent is using/has available to them. Pure skirmisher for example is better against mixed skirmisher/riot. Saying something like "a high skirmisher/riot ratio is good for being able to skirm without worrying about raiders blowing you out" is probably correct though. TBH I find skirmishers weak if used in quantities where ratios are used instead of counts. The game starts as a raider game (see: skirmishers not viable), and then when economies scale high enough for a player to control the map without fast units, the things that skirmishers counter see more play. The issue is that when economies are that large a punishing switch is feasible. Any and all of the mid-game 'striders' mop up skirms without taking attrition, as do gunships, and any number of other 'tech' options. In a normal game the window for effective skirmisher use is narrow, and by their very nature skirmishers are not good at winning games in short periods of time. Committing resources to large skirmisher based armies feels like a trap.
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The combo page is more of a guideline, so newbs can see what units can work well together. I personally find it detrimental if you have to find your own unit combo, only to realise that everyone else has used it before you. This gives newbs ideas or something to work with instead of having to make one from scratch. I don't see why Scalpel ball isn't powerful.
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quote:
I don't see why Scalpel ball isn't powerful. |
snipers will tell you combos is just too simple for a strategy game like this... but might help new users to find out counters... btw as abstract unit classes most combos are (- not always -) about the unit type not the unit itself (like hey maybe i shud send a defensive riot to my 30000 artilleries so they all dont die to just 1 raider) quote:
I find skirmishers weak |
rockos for example, their name wud fit if they wud hit like scalpels do
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Possibly Rocko may still be paying off the karmic debt from the last time it was strong. In an world with the modern Wolverine and Firewalker it's possible Rocko could be better than it is now. The kind of unit it is has many more counters now than before it was nerfed.
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Defender + defender is a pretty strong combo.
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quote:
snipers will tell you |
15 Reaload time, 1500 damage, cloaked. 99% of the time scalpel ball has Halberd. I'm pretty sure it enjoys force fire. Also, it only comes out of one factory, and the Hover fac has a scout called "Dagger". Finding said Skirmisher is not difficult with scout. quote:
combos is just too simple for a strategy game |
Please elaborate. Nothing is "too simple" for any strategy game. Sure the combos can be countered, but isn't that the point? The combos are not a "silver bullet", but their not a "one-trick pony" either. Many combos remain useable in battle. quote:
like hey maybe i shud send a riot to my 30000 artilleries so they all dont die to just 1 raider) |
Your example is extraneous. 30000 artilerry is 6x more than most game allow. At that point, said artillery have a definite ability to kill many raiders. I do agree Riot+Artillery works so Raiders can just kill off all your artillery, but that works better with Skirms. quote:
find skirmishers weak |
Maybe because I play spider, but Skirms tend to be a threat against quite a few units? New combo no one uses for some reason. Stardust+Stinger. I notice that Aquanim gets summoned.
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i think i just did, u say pure scalpel spam is a good "combo" i tell you snipers would be an answer then u list some counters for snipers u seemed to have missed in ur combo quote:
Many combos remain useable in battle. |
just like all units if u use em right as this is depends on strategies... quote:
I do agree Riot+Artillery works so Raiders can just kill off all your artillery, but that works better with Skirms. |
i strongly disagree to this that skirmishers would be a better choice then a riot against raiders
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quote:
Maybe because I play spider, but Skirms tend to be a threat against quite a few units? |
quote:
rockos for example, their name wud fit if they wud hit like scalpels do |
Both of you    hedgehogs and snoke are cherrypicking what    SnuggleBass said. What he meant is not that skirmishers are weak but that they are situationally weak. That is in the early phases of the game. So if you are going to use a combo of explicit ratio of "mix Skirmishers with Riots with about 5-1 ratio" from the start of the game I will guarantee that you WILL LOSE. Unless of course you are going to play in a clusterfuck where your allies can just play awfuly and your allies will carry you (or you will all fail miserably). If you are just going to play one army composition no matter how good it is and no matter how well you use it people will find a weakness in that strategy if you are going to use it over and over and over again. Shieldball is a notable example of this and so is a    [G0G0]Dancer army composition. This is a sign of good design. If people would fail to notice such weakness (or it simply doesn't exist), then it will be tweaked by the devs, who have for the most part a better understanding of game mechanics than you. Also Sniper is a shoddy way to counter a scalpel ball. It sort of works but it requires a lot of setup and is easily counterable by Halaberds and Daggers (like hedgehogs said). The ways to counter a scalpel ball are as follows: - never let it grow in the first place <- best solution - Wolverine <- best unit that makes scalpels nearly useless - any demistrider and Dante (they deal a lot of damage and have at least the range of a scalpel) - Reapers - Firewalker (another bullshit skirmisher that will slowly chip away scalpels' health) - Artilery
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just wanted to help hedgehogs to take abit more abstract or strategic then tactic look on this
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Yeah but ZK units are to different from each other to say generic things unless you are trying to teach the very basics snoke. For example Redback counters Warriors because it can kite them. Yet both units are riots Or how Panthers deal very well with Warriors despite being raiders. The basic counter structure is a guideline but it is not an absolute one.
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For another example, Rocko is a far better answer to Ducks than Glaive (and in some cases even Warrior), despite being theoretically type-countered by Duck. (Duck's strong alpha strike makes it strong against Glaive and okay against Warrior with good micro, but unlike most raiders it does not have enough speed to effectively close with a group of Rockos.) EDIT: quote:
Man the theorycraft is so strong here we're going to need to start asking for replays. |
  B436394 2 on Ravaged_v2As to the scalpel ball counters above: * Wolverine must be microed with care; it doesn't take a huge mistake for them to wander into Scalpel range, in my experience. * Reaper is actively countered by Scalpel IF the map is soft enough for Scalpel to put Reaper in a hole. If not the Reaper can at least tank shots, although I wouldn't expect it to accomplish a great deal on its own. * I would add air (especially Wyvern, although Thunderbird and Phoenix are useful too) and Darts (run into the Scalpel ball and force them to kill themselves with AoE) to the list. I haven't actually played against Scalpel in a while so I don't have replays at my fingertips for this one.
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Man the theorycraft is so strong here we're going to need to start asking for replays. What I was saying (or meant to say) is that skirms are weak early game, and weak late game. Yes scalpels are better than other skirms in this respect on account of also being riots, affording them utility against raiders, assaults, and air. But they're still not optimal in the early games on any map big enough for raiders to sneak past them, and they still get outscaled later. Hence the comment about thinking in ratios, since this implies you're putting your factory on repeat and leaving it there. One wyvern/firewalker/grizzly/dante/krow beats any number of skirmishers/riot, and skirmishers lack the punch to prevent an opponent teching to these options.
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quote:
* I would add air (especially Wyvern, although Thunderbird and Phoenix are useful too) |
Yeah it was written in my first version of the post but I forgot to add it to the revised version. quote:
Darts (run into the Scalpel ball and force them to kill themselves with AoE) to the list. |
I have yet to see it happen though I did hear people claiming for it to be possible. Feel free to provide a replay though since it would be definetely sick to see it in action. quote:
* Wolverine must be microed with care; it doesn't take a huge mistake for them to wander into Scalpel range, in my experience. |
Press "F" (or "A" if you are playing with new default hotkeys) click in the direction of the scalpel ball. Of course this gets harder if you refuse to use the fight command (like I often do) but it is still easily manageable. Also firing at ground is very good since once the mines will decloak it will also provoke scalpels to fire but at the time it will be in the missile stage already so the scalpel missiles will just hit ground instead (even though a wise player would use halaberds against minefields). I agree with Reaper thing you said. quote:
since this implies you're putting your factory on repeat and leaving it there |
This is exactly why imo putting factory on repeat is detrimental. It locks you psychologically in the same army composition and don't make you think about your unit choices. Sure you might lose some metal but you might gain tactical advantage over your enemies. In an ideal world you wouldn't have your resources wasted naturally.
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I'm pretty sure this is derailing thread. I made a page about Unit combos and now we're talking about how units counter other units.q
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Counters are why combos work. Generally you pick the units in a combo to cover each other's weakness.
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Locks you in psychologically? Only to the same extent that not using repeat queue locks you into not making units. Whenever you see me make a unit that isn't a raider or assault I've manually built it (including workers), but instead of defaulting to lost resources, I default to the probable best choice. What's not to love?
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