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1v1 meta is broken

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CHrankAdminDeinFreund
8 months ago
(edited 8 months ago)

All maps that are halfway hover pathable are hover maps. Choosing a different fac leads to imminent destruction.

Just look at the battles I fought today:
Multiplayer B450740 2 on Eye of Horus v13
Multiplayer B450764 2 on Onyx Cauldron 1.7
Multiplayer B450768 2 on Red Comet
Multiplayer B450781 2 on Isle of Grief 0.2
Multiplayer B450776 2 on Fairyland v1.0

Guess what starting (and ending) factory won every single one of these games.
+6 / -0


USrankFealthas
8 months ago
(edited 8 months ago)

Dagger/scalpel combo counters too many things, especially as they are alpha damage units. Some factories like shields or lv have absolutely 0 counters to hover. Cloak has sniper...which I guess can work, but not super efficient as scalpels are 220(!!!) metal. Snipers are a cancer unit too, so I'm not sure balancing around them is a good idea either. I suppose rockos work somewhat. Raiders don't really work because people bunch them up, and scalpel has aoe(more of a mace/club than ascalpel). Daggers also make for great anti raider units; a problematic synergy. They require very short range to work too, which puts you a big disadvantage as those types of things are easy to defend against.

I would suggest changing them a bit like this:
Increase scalpel cost by 40 or so.
Decrease its AoE(40->20).
Increase its damage to 358, cool down to 10->11.5. Maintains DPS. Worse against small things.

Cost increase just generally reduces their power. Reduced AoE and increased cooldown focuses its heavy skirmisher role. Increasing damage is problematic in that it increases 1 or 2 shot potential, which could counteract all the other nerfs. However, I think this is a better approach than reducing damage/cd as that makes it more of a generalist.
I'd rather that the tracking of the missiles not be messed with, as this is part of the flavor/identity of the unit, and would dilute its identity.

Making the dagger less of an alpha unit would also be something to consider. Currently the mechanics of the alpha make dagger relationships with other raiders very polar(either big win or huge loss...rare to see an in between). This goes against quants rule, but I think in the raider phase excessive quantyness can be bad for the game because it makes things counter eachother quite hard. An alpha-less dagger would probably suck, and need stat buffs afterwords. It can still be an interesting unit even without alpha.

Mace should also probably be looked at. Its really bad at everything... Greatly increasing its turret turn rate would atleast make it less frustrating to use.

Also 2 bonus games of me vs llama playing hovers.
Multiplayer B449412 2 on Crubick Plains v1.2
Multiplayer B449106 2 on Eye of Horus v13

I won both of those, but not with my starting factory(cloaky), but by switching to things that dont die to hover in every way. Notice how I get behind every game in the begging due to not being hovers.
+4 / -0



GBrank[GBC]1v0ry_k1ng
8 months ago
I think Scalpel should probably just lose its AoE - its been a skirmisher-riot for some time. That would force players to use the Mace, which has weaknesses that can be exploited.
+3 / -0



CHrankAdminDeinFreund
8 months ago
I would recommend to keep daggers untouched. Glaive is currently in a very strong position and on the edge of becoming the dominant raider, by nerfing daggers I fear we'd simply exchange one evil for another. Let hovers have their speed monopoly on flat ground, but make sure their midgame doesn't just completely destroy other factories. Imo the general theme for hovers should be speed, not strength.

I'd go for a more specialized scalpel with less aoe, maybe lower ROF and a mace with slightly(!) more speed. Current mace is something I never wanna build over daggers. I'd also recommend reducing penetrator beam time as it's being used as a long range riot already.

Please keep changes to reasonable (=very small) amounts, the latest glaive buff just felt like being experimented on in the live game.
+2 / -0

GBrankLlamadeus
8 months ago
(edited 8 months ago)

I agree that nerfing a unit in three directions at once typically results in an overadjustment, and it's better to narrow down which of its features is the outlier
+0 / -0


USrankFealthas
8 months ago
I don't think a dagger nerf would "exchange one evil for another". The dagger is currently evil. Its strange. It has strange interactions. Glaive has very healthy/good interactions. It gets absolutely destroyed by everything that should destroy it, and probably is the worst in straight up combat, as you would expect for a very fast and cheap raider. I rate it as (chaotic) good. If they prove to be too much we just roll back one of its recent buffs.
+0 / -0

PLrankOrfelius
8 months ago
(edited 8 months ago)

There is a problem with your claim CHrankAdminDeinFreund. All of your given examples are about you playing vs GBrankLlamadeus . As such it might not even be the fact that this matchup is "broken" but instead that you or him do poorly/well in said matchup.

Also meta can't be "broken" because it cannot be broken in the first place. It is just what it is. It might be boring, unfair etc but it can't be broken. Balance can be tho.

Scalpel is the most unfun unit in ZK imo. There isn't a real good way to fight against it and using it is just almost mindless since the missiles will hit 80% of the time.

I would like to remind you that Scalpel was fine before it got OKP and could be easily countered by just about any raider, that is a unit type that is supposedly aimed to counter the unit type of a Scalpel. But GF already explained to me a while back, that making units dumber goes against ZK's design goals. I guess that sticking to design goals is more important than gameplay itself.
+1 / -0




AUrankAdminGoogleFrog
8 months ago
Multiplayer B450740 2 on Eye of Horus v13 - Hover vs Hover.

Multiplayer B450764 2 on Onyx Cauldron 1.7 - Hover vs Shield game in which CHrankAdminDeinFreund has an advantageous start but switches into Gunships, gets stuck in a rut and resigns. Some notes:
  • The shield play focuses on small shieldballs fighting against large balls of Scalpel. Escalation to larger shield balls would have prevented the small balls being picked apart. Large balls suddenly win the attrition game against Scalpel. Penetrator is an issue though.
  • No Racketeer usage. This is perhaps reasonable but is worth exploring.
  • No Rogue usage. Rogue is pretty bad but may have fared well against the clumped Scalpels. A buffed rogue would fill a hole in Shields ability to deal with Scalpel.
  • The Gunship switch focused on Rapier and Brawler, both bad choices against Scalpel, Penetrator and Flail (which can be expected in response). Try Blastwing spam to soften up and push the Scalpels out of position. Small Thuglaw drops would take advantage of poor Scalpel speed. Planes may have been better with Pheonix for Scalpel and Raven to get confirmed Penetrator kills.
  • CHrankAdminDeinFreund had a decent economy advantage resulting from their early small shieldball play and the poor raiding capabilities of Dagger. They could have switching into something that would surely have been better than their actual choice.

Multiplayer B450768 2 on Red Comet - Another Hover vs Hover. Unit usage looked pretty non-degenerate. Mace is unused which may indicate a minor issue but you can't expect every unit in every game.

Multiplayer B450781 2 on Isle of Grief 0.2 - More Hover vs Hover. Perhaps the interesting thing to see here is that Flail may be a little too good. Air is quite suppressed and Hover already has plenty of flex-AA.

Multiplayer B450776 2 on Fairyland v1.0 - More Hover vs Hover. Little defenses lead to an early death by Dagger.

The battles in the OP do not support the statements. Only one of the battles contains a non-hover land factory. All that can be said is:
  • CHrankAdminDeinFreund and GBrankLlamadeus played a bunch of Hover mirrors. You can't even say that it is widespread.
  • The Hover mirror matchup looks reasonably interesting. All units are used except Mace.
  • Perhaps Flail is a little too powerful. This is just from observing Hover vs heavy aircraft.

+0 / -0


AUrankAquanim
8 months ago
quote:
Just look at the battles I fought today:
...
Guess what starting (and ending) factory won every single one of these games.

#1 is a hover mirror.
#2 is a map with a fair bit of water, and it's a pretty huge map to play shield on. Nevermind, the shield player was actually winning this game until a poorly executed gunship switch.
#3 is a hover mirror.
#4 is a map with a lot of water. And a hover mirror.
#5 is a hover mirror.

tl;dr the only one of these games which was not a hover mirror seemed to me like the hover player was disadvantaged by their starting factory.

I will also note that Llamadeus appears to be a hovercraft specialist, which may distort the observed results.

quote:
Also 2 bonus games of me vs llama playing hovers.

I won both of those, but not with my starting factory(cloaky), but by switching to things that dont die to hover in every way. Notice how I get behind every game in the begging due to not being hovers.

Surviving to the point where you can switch to a good factory is not unreasonable behaviour. That being said cloaky v hover is not a matchup I would necessarily choose to play.

Until I see Hovers regularly defeat Lveh players who use Slashers in the early game I am not going to believe that Hover is imbalanced in that matchup.

+0 / -0

PLrankOrfelius
8 months ago
(edited 8 months ago)

Imo there isn't a way to fix Scalpel. If you hit it too much with a nerf axe then it will just be useless overall. You can't make it more vunerable to certain units because it's missiles can attack every land unit and hit it while also having relatively big range and alpha. One of these things would have to go... except that these specific characteristics basically make up Scalpel itself:
If you increase rate of fire and lower damage you get something between Banisher and Slasher.
If you take away the tracking missiles you get a Rouge.
If you take away range you get a worse Leverer.

Oh and yeah Flail is just ridiculous. Not only it is a best AA in the game period because of its range and alpha but also because it is really tanky thus very hard to snipe early on (also fast and has hover pathing). I remember that once I attempted a relatively successful Banshee rush and then I made one Wasp and tried expanding. Then I wanted to go for a killing blow but there was a Flail and I couldn't do anything to it. ANYTHING. It even drove trough a 2 llts to kill my wasp and these llts did no damage to it at all.
+0 / -0


AUrankAquanim
8 months ago
I do agree that Flail outclassing other mobile AA to the degree which it does is problematic.
+0 / -0




AUrankAdminGoogleFrog
8 months ago
Multiplayer B449412 2 on Crubick Plains v1.2 - Hover vs Cloak. USrankFealthas on cloak was never losing significantly on attrition or income.

Multiplayer B449106 2 on Eye of Horus v13 - Hover vs Cloak. USrankFealthas was a little behind on income but ahead on attrition.
+0 / -0


EErankAdminAnarchid
8 months ago
Removing Scalpel's leveler sidearm sounds like a logical approach. I watched some of those games and it seems that Scalpels rarely kill less than two Daggers at once. One could say this is due to insufficient spreading on both players' parts, but i think large turn-radius raiders taking a shortest pacth to kill Scalpels before those reload almost guarantees clumping for the raiders in all but the most ideal situations.

I do think Hovers have some really cheap units. I always thought Halberd was like 300 with its power, but it's cheaper than Ravager and Scythe. And Scalpel is cheaper yet. This is not based on any math or reasoning, just a feel though.
+0 / -0

LVrankSenaven
8 months ago
quote:
A buffed rogue



Rogue need buff or bit rework. I agree with this. One of most useless unit in game vs other units.
+0 / -0

NZrankhedgehogs
8 months ago
quote:
A buffed rogue

What shall we give it?
+0 / -0



CHrankAdminDeinFreund
8 months ago
Indeed one of the main causes for this is probably the fact that I and Llama are the only active mm players, some more competition would definitely help show alternatives. Because of this "the meta" is just what we end up playing.

All we need is somebody to come in and stomp our hovers. As long as this doesn't happen I'm considering hovers to give me the highest win chances.
+0 / -0


AUrankSnuggleBass
8 months ago
Hey dude I tried with both LV and cloak. I then decided I needed to learn hover instead.


+1 / -0



GBrank[GBC]1v0ry_k1ng
8 months ago
Examine the LV vs Hover matchup for further evidence of a problem - its a rough time for LV.
+1 / -0

PLrankzenfur
8 months ago
(edited 8 months ago)

Am I the only one who likes rogues? They got decent damage, range and some AOE. Only missile speed is kinda slow, but that's skirmisher for you. I'd choose rogues over rockos any day. With cover of aegis they serve as a closer-range artilery as well getting rid of porc very well. Hitting under feet due to aoe they are not that bad vs glavies either. If you want to buff it, I'd give it slighly faster projectile for start.

An interesting nerf for Scalpel would be ~0.5 sec delay of "trackig" before missiles leave the unit, during which Scalpel has to have its enemies in 1.1x its range at end of that delay to shoot. Also they could have a bit faster missiles but shoot in higher arc (so it's even more difficult to hit incoming glavies and scorchers). In those scenarios some riot unit would be a must have to protect them against raiders.

It would make them slighlty less offensive, more defensive tool, easier to rush with raiders.

I agree that even after nerfs hoover AA is still superior to all mobile AAs.

I'd also like to point out that Halberd is ridiculous for its price, it counters so many things, does not give a fuck about porc and is badass overall. They require some micro (hold fire and shoot priority targets when close) and that's the only thing that does prevent them from being outright OP. It's a brick of doom which shoots particles which hit like a brick to the face.

And mace is the worst riot there is, partially because how unwieldy it is - I'd like to see (test) mace version with 1.5 higher turning speed and slightly reduced cost (400->370?). Also I'd really like more sight range at Mace. If it's so unwieldy let us make reactions faster giving higher los.
From my experience ~5-7 daggers beat mace, which is ridiculous considering one is supposed to counter the other. No sane amount of glavies will kill warrior, or Scorchers Levelers, and Panthers Banisher (although I didn't test that) - considering all riders are coming from similar direction. You can see example of Mace sucking at my last game Multiplayer B450792 4 on Fairyland v1.0, 2 Maces were built, both did nothing (one died to Daggers, another died to skirmishers so no point is made here)
+1 / -0


AUrank4hundred
8 months ago
maybe an argument for slight scalp\halb nerf.
probable reasons for flail nerf, maybe just less hp.

Daggers are fine, Mace sucks and the hover con is rubbish.

I dont think there is massive drama here. Although it is one of the better facs for flat open maps.
+1 / -0
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