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Which factory has the best/worst raider?

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USrankforcegod
30 days ago
I think that the best raiders are glaives and ducks are the worst.
What's your opinion?
+1 / -0


DErankAdminmojjj
30 days ago
but duck own glaives....
+2 / -0

LUrankAnir
30 days ago
I personaly prefer Detris.
+1 / -0


AUrankAquanim
30 days ago
(edited 30 days ago)

I'm not sure how useful this question is but I'll try to say some interesting things anyway.

Ducks aren't very good raiders (in terms of harassing eco, threatening com expansion, etc.) but they are good against many of the raiders that are (particularly Glaive and Scorcher). If we're talking about entire factories then Archer and maybe Scythe need to be considered also. I think Archer is underrated especially now that Limpet exists.

A mostly arbitrary ordering, assuming the map is hilly enough that veh-type and bot-type are both viable, and including scouts that act as raiders in practice:
Cloaky (glaive, scythe kind of)
Amph (duck/archer)
Tank (kodachi/blitz)
Rover (scorcher)
Shield (bandit)
Hover (dagger)
Jump (pyro)
Spider (flea)

The following caveats apply:

Hover goes up a LONG way as the map becomes flatter and bigger, and if it has water. Tank and Rover a bit less so. Jump goes up if the map has cliffs. Amph goes down if the map is big, and goes up if there is water or at least good terrain for Archer.

If we include gunship it's probably #1 unless the map does not favour it. Swift is too difficult to quantify for me.

If we include how factory constructors influence the raider game, Jumpfac goes up a bit and Shieldfac becomes either #1 or very close to it. Bandits hiding behind Convict shields are ridiculous.

If we include how other cheap units influence the raider game:
Shieldfac goes up (dirtbag is mostly irrelevant but snitch is great)
Cloaky goes up (imp is really good in raider game and mandatory in some matchups IMO, rocko is required in amph matchup)
Rover goes up a little bit (Dart vision makes it easier to use Scorcher, fencer is required in some matchups)
Spider becoes strange (Venom defeats enemy raids but doesn't raid itself)
Jump goes up a little bit (puppy is good in a few matchups, placeholder can be useful)
Amph maybe goes up a tiny bit (depends if you can get mileage out of limpet)_

On sea maps, ship > hover > amph (Corsair is nuts, Hunter and Seawolf are pretty good; Cutter is mostly useful in the mirror).

On flat maps, tank raiders beat hover raiders (ymmv) but Dagger has a better matchup against most other factories. Rovers have to lean on Fencer a bit.

Bandit, Scorcher and Glaive (in more or less that order) retain their usefulness in late game better than other raiders. Bandit is IMO the best raider for screening against cloaked stuff in the lategame and for dealing with incidental stuff, Scorcher is still a potent run-by threat, and Glaive is OK at both. The gimmicks of Amph, Tank and Jump raiders don't translate well into lategame and Dagger just doesnt do enough damage. Flea is a good screen against cloaked units although it doesn't do much else.
+2 / -0

USrankforcegod
28 days ago
Thats some solid analysis
+0 / -0

LVrankSenaven
28 days ago
There is no best raider because they are so specialized. You cant say that glaive is better then flea - glaive cant climb up on hills and have less speed.
Each raider have it cons and pros.
Worst raider however IMO is dart. Almost nobody use them. Except sometime for scouting. To use it good you must be micro master. They mostly don't pay back used in larger groups.
+0 / -0

ROrankForever
28 days ago
Planes and gunships
+0 / -0


ESrankShyrka
28 days ago
quote:
Worst raider however IMO is dart. Almost nobody use them.

I always build 2 Darts if I plop Rovers, trying to see what the other team plops and where are the most dangerous players. And don't use again in the whole game.
Maybe if it had a short range radar (Like Weaver) and/or radar stealth it would be more useful.
On the other hand, AI uses it pretty well, infiltrating it and killing isolated mexes and Windfarms. I always build Pickets everywhere when I play vs bots because of this.
+0 / -0


AUrank4hundred
28 days ago
(edited 28 days ago)

yes dart almost redundant, a roadside flea for LV.

Like LV needs a faster unit than a scorcher for cheap?

EDIT: Rover sorry
+1 / -0


AUrankAquanim
28 days ago
Giving Dart radar stealth is an interesting idea I think. I think Dart is reliably a little bit useful to scout for Scorchers.
+0 / -0



GBrank[GBC]1v0ry_k1ng
28 days ago
Its useful only because of its weight class imo. If Rover had access to Glaive or flea, Dart might never be produced (strictly worse).

Radar invisibility would be an interesting gimmick.
+0 / -0



AUrankAdminGoogleFrog
28 days ago
I would definitely make at least one Dart if it were a cloakbot. It is cheaper, faster and has more health than Glaive while dying in the same number of Picket shots.
+0 / -0


AUrankSnuggleBass
28 days ago
Aren't darts like super good in the early game? Or has that meta shifted?

They're not a spammy raider. They're a "you're too scared to leave your base for the first few minutes" raider. I used to build them every game almost without exception as rover, until the hovercraft nation attacked.
+2 / -0

AUrankSmokeDragon
27 days ago
i know im not supposed to focus on units outside of the role of raider.. but archer is kind of riot too so i really like them.. it is a raider but also a sort of anti raider and can defend units and bases while pushing mex eco.. i just thought id mention it because it might deserve more love then it gets for its versatility to switch between attack and defence.
+0 / -0

GBrankdarloth3
27 days ago
(edited 27 days ago)

Statistically speaking, darts are so much cheaper than glaives or bandits they ought to compete! But they don't. I thought "Lower range isn't a problem, they're so fast" but in practice it really is, they rarely get to fire.

That said, darts are excellent scouts. They cost so little you can put one everywhere. Fleas are better for this, yes, but if you're playing rovers you usually don't have that option. I'd love it if they were radar stealth, but I've no idea whether that would be balanced.

Edit: You could also differentiate them without radar stealth by giving them even more vision. They already have above average for a raider, but if you buffed that to 650 or 700 or so they'd be actually really useful to take one or two along just for that.
+1 / -0



AUrankSaktoth
27 days ago
Archer is definitely sadly underloved. It's a really strong anti-raider unit with very low damage vs buildings which is super interesting. But it's in the same factory as duck, which it has almost no synergy with, and Duck is already a great anti-raider-raider. I would love to see a more usable Archer.
+2 / -0

AUrankSmokeDragon
27 days ago
i agree that mixing in an archer to give ducks reload time is prolly not worth it unless vs mass glaves or something.. but archers and grizz is a dream.. i guess im off topic now
+0 / -0

LUrankAnir
27 days ago
maybe archers should be transformed in some kind of arty?

I mean, they could cost more, but have greater range. They would be specific arty against units. I dont think that exisits already.
And since the amph factory is already pretty limited in possible tactics, this could be a good base to change that a bit.
+0 / -0

AUrankSmokeDragon
26 days ago
even if they just kept power and didnt 'run out of water' they would be much better.. but i still like them.. because 4 glaves can get past 4 ducks.. but 1 archer pwns 4 glaves taking no damage
+0 / -0

GBrankdarloth3
25 days ago
It is weird that some units have literal gravity cannons, capable of attracting or repelling units, lasers, all sorts of other stuff...

And the Archer can run out of water.
+5 / -0
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