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JJ Rebalance Proposal

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6 years ago
For consideration. Have been testing it, feels decent. Will go by changes in order of ones I most believe in to least.

Constable
Remove slowbeam.
Grant 70 damage beam in its place.
Reasoning: JJ is very bad at defending its cons. Pyros are high weight, and not that fast. Against Fleas especially expanding can become a nightmare. A 35 dps weapon does not really let it bully anything, but it allows the unit to fight off one glaive, bandit, dart, or flea that wanders to harass it. I feel this is actually important for a fac that has no cheap raider - HT has an armed con for similar reasons, but has a much better set of units for defense.


Jack
Increase Jump speed from 4 to 6.
Reasoning: Jacks biggest problem is that it cannot engage. Even if it needs its health nerfed back down a bit, I think a jack that can engage turrets or other slow units with less bombardment time, is a healthier Jack


Puppy
Increase speed from 3.5 to 4.
Decrease range from 170 to 160.
Decrease gray goo cost to 30.
Decrease gray goo rate to 2.
Increase gray goo area to 150.
Reasoning: Puppies are a suicidal unit, with very uninteresting raider matchups.
What this seeks to do primarily is make the puppy a unit defined by wanting to consume wrecks to generate them. Their effective BP is down towards what a con might have, but they are actually quite efficient to make. This, combined with a higher speed (and lower range so they don't dominate raiders) is so they actually feel like a self-replicating support unit. The metal prices are such that they will actually suffer markedly less attrition raiding, if they clean up after themselves. Killing a mex will now just about pay for the puppy that killed it.


Pyro
Increase cost from 220 to 250.
Increase health from 620 to 830
Reasoning: Pyros benefit from higher weight for a few reasons. They are harder to rush, their relative friendly fire is less, and they are more likely to be able to kill a single LLT on their own. This pushes them to the level where they should be able to consistently take out 1 LLT, and have enough health to expect to get home. With no natural repair, they will need to get home too, preventing their raiding from being out of control.


Moderator
Currently experimenting with a 120 cost moderator, that has a beam duration of 0.5-.66 seconds, 375 damage, and 15 reload time.
This feels more consistent with wanting a placeholder, and radically reduces their effectiveness against raiders promoting better counters. With improvements to all other units listed against raiders (if just by making them more usable), I felt like this guy could finally use a nerf there. As it stands, it is probably too difficult a unit for players to deal with at lower skills, because they attempt to use the counter and a real chunk of them get instagibbed at the offset, so when they try to dip their toes in and get a feel for the counter they get punished.
+2 / -0


6 years ago
[powercreep intensifies]
+3 / -0
6 years ago
jump lab cab be really strong tho
+1 / -0


6 years ago
I really like the Slowbeam on constable. It really makes a good support unit when trying to face off against Riots, Commanders and Raiders.
I would be willing to give it some damage together with slow just so that it isn't completely defenseless against 1 or 2 Fleas. For example, giving it the same ratio of slow damage and HP damage as moderator would give it 9 DPS with 18 damage per shot. Good enough enough to ward off a few fleas.

Jack is just barely fast enough with its' jump to close the distance to commanders, slow riots and slow skirmishers. Decreasing that flight time would really affect the balance of that and make it much more potent against said units. The micro requirement to use this regularly against riots and skirmishers is huge and I don't really think Jack needs a buff.

I'm not sure I like the Grey Goo mechanic. If it is strong enough, it basically changes the whole game where it sucks up wrecks, denying it from the enemy and it just becomes the unit to always facswitch into when the wrecks start pilling up in no-mans land, both in 1v1 and teamgames.
An increase in speed is effectively an increase in range aswell to the point where I would argue that 4 speed and 160 range is quite a bit better than 170 range and 3.5 speed.

Well last nerf to Pyros were specifically a HP decrease to make them less tanky if I remember correctly. Pyros is a weird unit. OP with good micro when using jump at the right moment, underpowered against light porc and in large numbers. It really doesn't have the breakthrough power that masses of other raiders have but can also act as a riot for Moderators. Dunno.

Moderator is arguably simply OP. Tanks can do little to nothing if the Moderators get critical mass except hiding behind Stingers, Pickets or trying to use Emissary artillery to wear their numbers down. On the other hand, tanks arguably doesn't really get played on the same maps as JJ and if tanks are chosen, the map will most likely be fairly open so that they can go around the slow Moderators or hit them from several angles before they get critical mass.
Other factories fare much better with cheaper raiders and skirmishers with longer range than Moderators but a few Pyros can make Moderators mostly raider proof.
About your changes, 375 damage is a huge burst damage for a 120 cost unit with pinpoint accuracy. 0.66 seconds isn't enough time to react and it would make Moderator a lot better against Raiders.
On the other hand, if several Moderators will waste all their shots against single units coming into their range, you have just added another unit in the Jumpbot factory that have a huge micro requirement to use effectively.
+3 / -0

6 years ago
Beam duration effectively decreases DPS, and allows shots to not fully hit a unit.

With the values I have given, it is a tremendous decrease in effective utility for moderator vs raiders. To be honest, its enough of a weakening of the unit, that I am a bit uncertain about it.

Many units at the 600 price point can be a major threat to commanders. Felon is a good example, as is the Phantom. A similar cost in glaives will also usually do the trick. Jack is not actually a very good unit for many reasons. I believe it would be in a better place with 6 jump speed and, if necessary, some nerfs to balance out the other aspects.
+0 / -0


6 years ago
Well it will also make Moderators likely to friendly fire each other a lot as friendlies passes through their beams. Not acceptable.

Jack is great against commanders.
My point is that the riots and skirmishers that are just barely able to escape the jacks grasps like Warriors, Outlaws, Rogues and Recluse will just be ran down by jacks with higher jump speed and proper micro.
+0 / -0
quote:
[powercreep intensifies]

I got an idea: Nerf sniper!

+1 / -0

6 years ago
I notice you didn't mention placeholder or sumo, some of the most broken units in the game.

Complains about jack mobility
Doesn't use placeholders with them
>lob lob lob
+0 / -0

6 years ago
Jack mobility is not just about hitting units. It many ways, that is the smaller part.
It is about crossing distance, and the damage and effects that pile on when they start taking damage till they get to their target.

JJ has always had the problem that it has a lot of theoretically powerful units, but when you get down to the reality of the game they are far weaker. Only moderator transcends that and becomes more powerful.



Lets look at this another way. Do people actually think JJ is strong right now? It has a few useful units, but it doesn't compare to the main factories like cloaky that just have an answer to every problem.
+0 / -0


6 years ago
Cloaky have always been the most OP in terms of versatility.
+0 / -0
The Constable change is just so aesthetically displeasing :/

Jack change seems ok, unsure about the rest.
+0 / -0

6 years ago
I'm not an expert but think JJ is competitive at the moment. The units are meant to be used with each other (for example, constable with pyro bodyguard).


I agree with the constable issues against enemy scouts but think they could be improved more by giving them a 50dps 250 range rapid fire laser like a half-bandit instead of a 35dps 320 range weapon.


Players can probably do well atm by starting with pyro harass and containment which works vs raiders and skirmishers, then mix in some moderators to oppress the enemy assaults and riots, and then use jacks as tanks.


Remember that pyro has exactly the same speed as bandit and just 10% less than blitz. The only class it has trouble fighting is other riots, which are much slower and are hard countered by moderators.


Jack's already one of the best tanks in the game in terms of HP/cost. Players can send it ahead of pyros to draw fire from defenses and then jump away. It doesn't need a buff.

I also dislike the moderator change, which would be a significant buff. Extreme spike damage is toxic, it creates very one-sided interactions.
+0 / -0

6 years ago
I suspect people do not understand the implications of the moderator change if they view it as a buff, but really these things can be tweaked if people have balance concerns.

I am arguing for design changes that lead to a more stable JJ, one that doesn't just rely on mod spam to function.
+0 / -0
I dislike the Constable changes because they go against uniqueness.
  • There is already an armed constructor.
  • I like the slowbeam because it has a lot of utility to support against raiders and riots.
  • Given that I like slow, if Constable dealt damage it would be a disruptor beam similar to Dart.
  • Two disruptor beams in the same factory is boring.

The Jack change is an ok direction for a buff. Unsure it is required, at least at that magnitude.

I dislike the Puppy goo changes more than I dislike the Constable changes. The other Puppy changes are better, perhaps speed would make them better for scouting and catching raiders (and this may be a good thing). I dislike the goo changes because I think you need a really good reason to break cost consistency. I think producing Puppies out on the field with no energy or BP cost is already a good enough bonus.

I don't want to make Pyro heavier, for the mentioned raider issues. A heavier jumping raider sounds quite frustrating to play against as it will be much more able to snipe things. If Pyro is bad I would consider reducing its cost.

I'd rather not make Moderator lighter or relatively more tanky. We've already got Ronin and Rogue for the ~100 cost skirmisher role. Beam time on such a small unit is not viable due to teamkilling and it feels like it would inconsistently deal partial damage in frustrating ways. I don't think it is good if an early skirmisher with 15s reload randomly kills Glaives depending on their direction of travel. I am imagining your change without the beam time change and it sounds like a buff against small raiders. There are so many integers involved in Moderator balance. 375 damage is a buff vs Glaive and Bandit, a nerf vs Scorcher and Ronin.

I agree that Moderator is quite a janky unit. It 1-shots itself which makes the JJ vs JJ matchup pretty weird. They have really low health so I feel like Tank can get away with Emissary.
+5 / -0

6 years ago
To be honest, the constable change is the one that I am most for.

Yes, slow beam seems interesting. It gets some utility in practice as well. The faction has a massive weakness against light raiders, especially fleas. In theory 'Jump Jet' means they should be good on hilly maps, but on such a map fleas are immensely destructive. They have no cheap raiders, only suicidal and inconsistent units to help defend their cons.

Literally no other Factory has such an inability to defend its cons, and keeping a pyro near them is an overly restrictive solution that prevents any form of harass and slows down their expansion substantially.

They already have sufficient access to slow from the moderator, and I do get that I could argue moderator could have a disruptor beam was because their con already had a slow beam. Its cute, it has its uses, but overall it just adds to the immense amounts of micro requirements and blind RPS of the factory.

There is room for two radically different constructors that are armed. Both factories need help against light raiders, and JJ needs the help even more than HT. It only makes sense that JJ would get an answer as well.


For moderator? This is the change I least argue for, and is only tenable with beam time. I do not know why, but friendly fire seems relatively rare, and if it was a real problem can be disabled for the weapon. I did not include the implied half health along with half cost, but it was intended.


Pyro change is likewise one I am not too enthusiastic about, and can only sanely occur if the Constable gets some ability to defend itself. I feel its a bit weak, but the early rush potential is quite high. Cost reductions were avoided as they could enhance that rush, and that is a genuine concern for me. Likewise, high pyro numbers are a problem because they friendly fire themselves to death. Adding strength to the unit that reduces its numbers seems like a better direction, generally.

Again though, less enthusiastic about these two changes.




Finally, for puppy. There is some truth that removing the energy cost is an improvement to economy. That said, the factory already requires an energy surplus to repair its high-weight units. In practice, its more a method of denying reclaim to the enemy - something valuable, but a bit odd in practice.

Years were spent with a 50% increase in metal cost. The intention behind 30m was a bit odd, but it was in short a similar 50% increase on a 'perfectly efficient' reclaim. Wrecks only grant up to 40% original metal, so including the 1.50x tax, that be a 30m gray goo cost.

In testing, I do not think it problematic. The unit can be strong at times, as it always has been able to be, but its counters are very real, and the gray gooing is well telegraphed.
+1 / -0


6 years ago
I like the idea of the Constable doing enough dmg to kill a flea in 2 shots.
+1 / -0
6 years ago
i know i shouldn't post this here.. can quake missile from silo have slow effect so it has an all round purpose sometimes?
it sort-of makes sense and it could be fun because terra is so rare.. and if the slow aoe can go past shields like amphib crawling bomb it could really help deal with shield balls.. emp probably still better option tho.
+0 / -0

6 years ago
I don't have a strong aesthetic objection to adding enough damage to Constable that it can handle a couple of Fleas, but making it able to engage Glaives with reasonable results seems poor.
+3 / -0
could give it a short ranged pulse pistol.. fires a white instant hit flash that lightly knocks back and then stuns for a half a second with no damage.. reloads slowly.. pairing it with slow cannon and jump it would be a very cool unit in groups
+0 / -0

6 years ago
I don'y really see dealing with fleas as a problem. Its honestly not that hard...just make an llt. Spider already struggles to raid anything, you want to make that even worse?
I'm not sure making more than 1 pyro vs spiders is good. Mass con+llt seems to be the way to go, and then just move into moderators/jacks directly.
+2 / -0
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