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Does Cyclops need a buff?

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5 years ago
A thread to discuss whether Cyclops needs a buff so as not to drag the "Cyclops hit graphic and AoE mismatch?" thread off topic.

Things that may be worth considering:
What should its role be?
How do you prevent it infringing on the roles of other units or obsoleting other units?
When would you make a (buffed) Cyclops? When wouldn't you make one?
When thinking of a particular change (for instance, a fire rate/AoE/hp/range increase), it may be helpful to consider what is the largest possible change before it would obsolete another unit, this may help give a something concrete for follow on discussion.
+0 / -0


5 years ago
From the previous thread:
DErankAdminmojjj
quote:
Yea, let's buff Cyclops.

PTrankraaar
quote:
why does it need a buff?

compare to grizzly, cyclops gets 42% more hp and 37% higher move speed at a 10% cost increase. It trades an efficient 600 range weapon for a clumsy 450 range weapon that has a lot of extra slow damage. I'd say the cyclops weapon is worth less than the grizzly's, but not enough to offset cyclops's other advantages, so it still seems more cost-effective in terms of raw attributes.

The other question is : how useful is it in the actual game?

Maybe people aren't using it properly. An OP spear will probably be mediocre if used as a hammer and vice versa.
+1 / -0
5 years ago
Hell no
+5 / -0

5 years ago
Given how recently it was nerfed/reworked I would not expect a buff in any hurry.
+0 / -0


5 years ago
Out of the heavies, cyclops is the best anti-heavy on flat ground where it can use its' speed to lock down targets or retreat if necessary.
It can 1v1 a Dante if it stays at max range.
It can 1v1 a Grizzly and the slow makes it hard for the Grizzly player to retreat damaged and slowed Grizzlies in group fights with other units engaged.
A jugglenaut can basically do nothing against a Cyclops except hold it in place or keep it at a distance and wish that some other unit kills it.
A Crabe on low ground stand little chance.
A Scorpion can stun a Cyclops with its' manual attack but it is horribly slow compared to the Cyclops and if the Scorpion is out on open ground and discovered by other units and gets slowed, a Cyclops with the support of some other units can kill a Scorpion.

The low profile of the Cyclops makes it harder for raiders to hit it when the raiders are blocking each other.
The small hitvolume of the Cyclops also makes Dguns less effective against it and a fully health Cyclops is likely to survive with a substantial amount of health.
+4 / -0
cyclops does seem relatively vulnerable to dgun. its large flat body probably takes more damage from it than a dante or paladin would.

jugglenaut is niche unit. Maybe it needs a higher price tag and belt turret with a pair of scorcher heatrays in addition to the gravity guns
+0 / -0


5 years ago
Jugglenaut is not that niche. It is basically anti everything small and mobile including air. It just need some back-up DPS.
+2 / -0

5 years ago
sumo is already OP
+1 / -0
so maybe buff sumo. do what we usually do, make it slower and just one gravity beam. so you nerf weaknesses. to buff it´s anti-everything-abillities:
1: add a d-gun, so you can suck in heavier units and insta-kill them.
2: add a pulse-field like outlaw has one against cloaked units and raiders.

alternatively you could fuse it with funnelweb: add area-shield and drones.

and definitely buff porc and arty, they are underperforming hard. At least buff emissary...
+1 / -0

5 years ago
I feel Cyclops is just about right how it is now. If people really feel its weak then give its main gun a small damage boost. I had cyclops eaten alive by minotaurs the other day. Or maybe I am not using it optimally?
+0 / -0
SErankGodde : "Out of the heavies, cyclops is the best anti-heavy"
I'd say the Minotaur is better against all heavies except the Dante:

Grizzlies can kite a Cyclops for a while before they are caught, which combined with the Minotaurs higher speed and DPS means they have roughly the same chase distance.
Jugglenauts are just as ineffective against Minotaurs as they are against Cyclops and again the higher DPS of the Minotaur helps.
Crab is just riot artillery and dies either way.
Scorpions naturally die much harder to Minotaurs.

My issue with the current Cyclops is that the only time I'd build them is if my opponent seems to like Dantes, otherwise I'd just build more Minotaurs.

What I'd recommend depends on what it's role should be:

1. Heavy skirmisher - Increase range 450 -> 500 and projectile speed 310 -> 340. This allows it to fend off Dominatrix (becoming the tank dominatrix counter), effectively chase down Grizzlies and do more kiting while still maintaining most of its other current weaknesses to things like raiders, air units, anti-heavies, Racketeers, etc. It still won't have the DPS to be an effective front line combatant as part of a mixed force, but can be used to bait the enemy and force them to commit. Essentially this would be the tank skirmisher (a role presently unoccupied).
* I'd build this to harass an enemy and force engagements and to fend off Dominatrix (it can't chase them down though). I'd also use it to kill Dantes and Grizzlies.

2. Anti-heavy - Increase damage 1000+2100S -> 1400+3000S. This doesn't effect how it performs against the majority of units but makes it much more cost effective against heavies and means it's enough of a better choice than Minotaurs vs heavies that this outweighs its lesser speed, hp/cost and effectiveness against smaller units. It will also go through shields much more easily.
* I'd build this to counter enemy heavies and for shielded porc busting.

3. Generalist - AoE to match its current visuals 16 -> 48, reload time 3.5 -> 3 and cost 2200 -> 2000. This makes it a moderately effective combatant in pitched battles, but nothing to write home about. It won't be a proper riot unit due to the relatively small AoE (compare Ripper 72 and Ogre 80) and low projectile speed. It will still be worse than the Minotaur in assaults due to lesser hp/cost, speed and overkill issues. The AoE increase only has an effect on very tightly packed bot balls, anything slightly larger like a ravager is mostly unaffected.
* I'd build this when I'm facing bot balls (that don't have many Racketeers in them). I'd also use it to kill Dantes. (somewhat surprisingly it still can't make cost against Minotaur balls)
+0 / -0


5 years ago
ZArankAstran : When would you build a Cyclops over a Minotaur?
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5 years ago
Yeah, Minotaurs and Cyclops already overlap a lot in role but it really is the slow damage that gives the Cyclops the advantage in most situations as an anti-heavy.
Slowing down a Grizzly makes it easy to pick-off before it can retreat far behind other units and defenses.
In low density situations, Minotaurs higher DPS for cost and higher HP for cost makes them better against being swarmed and such.
However, in higher density situations, the threat of swarms and raiders decrease and the higher HP of Cyclops makes them easier to keep alive and repair compared to Minotaurs.
Also, if you are facing off against another tankplayer with Minotaurs, as soon as the other player starts deploying Cyclops, your Minotaurs are going to suffer as they will get slowed down trying to chase the enemy and then left behind and picked off as you are trying to retreat.

Cyclops are already kind of a counter to Dominatrix. Like against Minotaurs, Dominatrix lose if they chase the tanks and win when they are being chased. However, the Cyclops can, unlike Minotaurs, skirmish against Dominatrix. The Cyclops should lead the charge, kill 1 or 2 Dominatrix and retreat before taking too much capture damage and if the Dominatrix tries to follow, they will suffer more losses or you can put some other units infront of the Cyclops to draw fire.

Cyclops are simply an easier unit to keep alive and better unit for picking out and killing other heavies before they retreat.
If you can stick to the faster and more bang for the buck Minotaurs, great, but don't expect your Minotaurs to consistently beat other heavies the same way that Cyclops can.
+0 / -0

5 years ago
I should really introduce sarcasm tags...
+5 / -0

5 years ago
the slow gives it a supportish role.

cyclops + minotaur probably beats pure cyclops or pure minotaur.
+0 / -0


5 years ago
PTrankraaar : That was the very first thing I tried when the patch to Cyclops was first announced. I tried various combinations of Minotaur and Cyclops numbers and various maneuvers and approaches. It was still a massacre in favor of the pure Minotaur force. Cyclops DPS is just too low.

btw: I do a good 30mins (and up to two hours in some cases) of testing and theory crafting for most of my posts on game/unit balance.
+0 / -0
Unsure about your testing methodology.

My latest bunch of 1v1's included a game vs NLrankWesley where i attacked a Grizzly guarded by a bunch of ducks and archers with a Cyclops and an Ogre. The Ogre died fairly quickly to Grizz fire, taking some ducks for trade. Then Cyclops proceeded to murder the griz, the ducks, and the archers and then head back for repairs.

I'm fairly supicious that a few minotaurs plus ogre would instead have been staggered by the archers in this situation, while the full speed grizz would travel way further before dying; and possibly one or two Minotaurs would have died.

This is of course an anecdote, but tests in synthetic conditions may miss things like the weight advante of losing 0 cyclops compared to losing 1-2 minotaur.
+2 / -0


5 years ago
SErankGodde : I'm struggling to reproduce the Cyclops actually catching and slowing the Grizzly in under 1000 elmo.
In my testing the range advantage of the Grizzly is too great and other units have a tendency to outpace the Cyclops and "spook" the Grizzly into kiting. And pure Cyclops lacks the DPS for a quick kill.
That said, sandboxing is no substitute for actual gameplay and you are the #1 on both ladders so...

Are there any replays you can point me at as examples of effective Cyclops use in something other than a Dante-killing role? All the ones I've seen have had me thinking "Minotaurs would have been better there".
I'd also be very interested in examples of them working against Dominatrix or Minotaur, because my ~6 experiences with those matchups have been decidedly against the Cyclops (including my opponent observing that he only lost because he built Cyclops rather than Minotaurs).
+0 / -0
EErankAdminAnarchid : Most commonly I make two sides of units, sometimes mixed and sometimes pure and set them to attack move against each other, manually forcing them to reengage if they get too far away and still have plenty of health. This has in the past caused me to underestimate the value of weight (as you have pointed out), so now I try and micro/set auto-retreat.
I shall look at those replays and get back to you.
+0 / -0
GBrankdyth68 I've made some single player tests with cheat on and...indeed cyclops + 3 minotaurs (4750) loses reliably to 6 minotaurs (5100) if they go all-in.

The cyclops only manages to keep one of the minotaurs slowed, sometimes even ignoring attack commands on others.

I did manage to kill the 6 minotaurs with a cyclops, 3 minotaurs and 2 kodachis once (to even out the metal) by baiting the minotaurs into wasting shots and time firing at kodachis.

minotaur's raw power and speed advantage allows an advantage there, but having 100 more range gives the cyclops some skirmishyness.

I've also tested 6 minotaurs against 5k in ravagers and the minotaurs were overrun by the significantly faster ravagers, does that mean minotaurs are also underpowered? or that ravagers are overpowered?
+3 / -0
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