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Protests about racism in USA

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Relocating discussion from https://zero-k.info/Forum/Thread/29893?page=38

I don't have much to say beyond this:

quote:
At a high level though, the number of black americans killed by police (justified or not) in the last 30 years since the 1992 Los Angeles riots seems on the order of 10000. For thread-related context, the number of Americans killed by COVID-19 this year is officially over 100k, could have a non-quite-worst-case of 1 million deaths this year and the number of Americans killed by ageing over the last 30 years is around 100 million.

So I don’t think it unreasonable that someone could understand the stakes of the protest and still rationally perceive the stakes of the virus are sufficiently higher that protesting should not happen in its current form at the current time.

A "utilitarian ethical framework" only has relevance to reality if you do the math right. Doing the math right is very hard.

Putting aside whether I agree with "lives lost" or "number of life-years" without reference to quality as a worthwhile objective (at best I think it lacks nuance), the effect of systemic racism on the lives and lifespan of people of colour in the United States extends well beyond the number of people literally killed by police.
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3 years ago
I don't disagree with any of what you said (the maths is very hard, QALYs are needed, etc).

I was just trying to make the point that a reasonable, good person could still think that the protests are a net negative in the current environment.


Though regarding protesting reducing racism in general: while it's easy to see a path from protesting to police reform (and thus a lot less dead Americans of all races, which would be a very good thing), it's much harder for me to see a path from protesting to reduced racism.

In fact, I would not be surprised if the protests indirectly lead to higher racism due to the riots and looting that follow resulting in lots of videos of black Americans looting/rioting being published. Reddit in particular seems to have gone heavily racist over the last few days (though I suspect astroturfing). :/
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3 years ago
Protests against racism with mass demolition. Very nice way to show solidarity and cultural level.
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AUrankAdminAquanim due to some forum glitch your edit linking to this post is invisible to users, I don't expect this was your intention since you took the time to set it up (thank you for that).

quote:
I was just trying to make the point that a reasonable, good person could still think that the protests are a net negative in the current environment.


A person can think that the protests are a net negative in the current environment, this is expected. Let's look at the environment a bit closer though.

The protest originated in USA. This is a country where the leadership dropped the ball on COVID months ago. Workers are still getting sick in factories, their employers are not taking even basic steps to prevent it, and nobody is holding the employers accountable. The protest "isn't about COVID" but it's definitely a factor.

History has also shown what happens when people get comfortable with killing people who weren't born the same way as them. When you're entering data into your ethics computer, you may find it decides that preventing a genocide or a world war is a better path than exposing less people to COVID. Your own judgement depends on how far ahead (and behind) you look.

So from where I'm sitting thinking that the protests are a net negative isn't something a reasonable, good, and informed person would think.

quote:
Though regarding protesting reducing racism in general: while it's easy to see a path from protesting to police reform (and thus a lot less dead Americans of all races, which would be a very good thing), it's much harder for me to see a path from protesting to reduced racism.


Reducing racism isn't really the goal of the protest, though it has already been effective at showing everybody else who the racists are. Police reform seems to be the main talking point and is a good goal that probably has enough traction to make legislation. Prison reform is something most Americans agree on, but hasn't been a talking point for this protest yet.

quote:
In fact, I would not be surprised if the protests indirectly lead to higher racism due to the riots and looting that follow resulting in lots of videos of black Americans looting/rioting being published. Reddit in particular seems to have gone heavily racist over the last few days (though I suspect astroturfing). :/


I haven't seen any videos of black Americans looting/rioting, but I have seen plenty of videos of white Americans trying to loot/riot and black Americans stopping them, as it is wise for them to do. Reddit has always been a hands-off moderation kind of place and wherever there is ground there will be astroturf. Racists want other racists to feel like they are the majority when they are not.

quote:
Protests against racism with mass demolition. Very nice way to show solidarity and cultural level.


Officially, most of the violence and destruction has been by opportunists, with a small amount done by extremists of both sides. Also violence and instigation by police is well-documented. In some places police have been photographed unloading bricks onto the sidewalk for people to throw.

The organizers of these protesters are veterans of Occupy Wall Street and BLM who are familiar with protest and counter-protest strategy and tactics. They are actively preventing people from looting whenever possible because they know this would discredit their movement.

The destruction of the police station in Minneapolis is in a different category. They had to burn down their own police station before the police officer was charged with murder.
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USranknop

quote:
I haven't seen any videos of black Americans looting/rioting, but I have seen plenty of videos of white Americans trying to loot/riot and black Americans stopping them, as it is wise for them to do. Reddit has always been a hands-off moderation kind of place and wherever there is ground there will be astroturf. Racists want other racists to feel like they are the majority when they are not.

I think we're living in strongly different filter bubbles.
Correct my if I'm wrong, but you seem like an anti-racist person who consumes anti-racist news sources?
People like that are certainly not going to become more racist, but imagine someone who is a bit racist and consumes slightly racist news (or heck, imagine they are a redditor, who normally lean pretty leftwards and get their news from reddit). This person sees tons of these videos of looters and in most of the cases they see they're almost all black.
They are going to find themselves becoming a bit more racist. Particularly if they start talking to other people who are also consuming the same news sources.

And I suspect a lot more people have slightly-racist news sources than have very anti-racist news sources.

I think that may also play into this:
quote:
When you're entering data into your ethics computer, you may find it decides that preventing a genocide or a world war is a better path than exposing less people to COVID. Your own judgement depends on how far ahead (and behind) you look.

So from where I'm sitting thinking that the protests are a net negative isn't something a reasonable, good, and informed person would think.

I suspect most Americans (and probably non-Americans too) think the risk of a genocide or world war due to lack of protesting to be extremely low. Likely because their world-views will have been influenced by different sources than you. E.g. they might have been exposed to graphs like this one showing slowly diminishing number of black people killed by police in the USA and think the trend could continue without any need for further intervention.



As an aside: The above things are why I think polarization is so bad (and worsening) in the USA. You have two groups of people consuming entirely different sources of information (which experience sampling which is biased by the normal news sharing incentives to emphasize how stupid and evil the other group is. Briefly explained here: ).
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USranknop
3 years ago
You're preaching to the choir about people living in different bubbles. Are you saying I'm wrong or that you think I should change my behavior because of this?
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3 years ago
Well my main thesis is that someone can be reasonable, good and well informed (in the sense of knowing lots of relevant facts about a situation) and still conclude the protests should not go forwards in this time and place.
The filter bubble stuff was to partially to explain the "well informed" bit, but also to gently point out that you likely have a filter bubble/worldview that you will need to explain to make your point about preventing genocide and world wars via protesting make sense to others, otherwise the idea will seem so outside their world model that someone reading from a different bubble will just see this:

The inferential distances involved are probably quite large though.
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USranknop
3 years ago
GBrankdyth68 you are personally distancing yourself from your words. It is a trait of educated people to entertain ideas they may not personally accept, but can you clarify whether or not you believe that the protests are a net negative or at least make an argument in support of that hypothesis? Otherwise you're just muddying the waters. I can't counter an argument that you haven't made yet because the hypothesis is that somebody might have a hypothesis. I think my response has been appropriately rhetorical.

The point that people live in bubbles supports protests being a net positive. When people rely on filtered news sources, it's hard to tell how many people actually believe in something amongst all the astroturf. When there are this many people taking part in protests in every territory across the third largest country in the world (by both land mass and population), it presents a head count of people who want change strongly enough to go out and demonstrate. Violent racists are exposing themselves to anybody who didn't believe they existed. I've seen these phenomena with my own eyes in my own city. All I had to do was walk down and observe it unfiltered. That's not being in a bubble, it's being a citizen.
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3 years ago
The main reason I've not been trying to actually argue about whether the protests are good is because what I really care about is pushing for a social environment where people don't vocally assume those who disagree with them are either stupid, ignorant or evil, not the object-level debate about whether the protests are worthwhile.

My own views are that I don't know either way whether the US protests are worthwhile (mostly because I think if there had been a simple solution to your police violence problem it would have been solved 30 years ago) but do think the UK versions are not (UK police are very good at not killing people).
I could try and argue for an anti-US protest stance, but my knowledge of how USA politicians and public respond to protests (and resulting violence/looting) is fairly poor, as is my knowledge of the relevant statistics on police violence and functioning of law-enforcement-related institutions and culture, so I'm not convinced I could do a very good job.

quote:
When people rely on filtered news sources, it's hard to tell how many people actually believe in something amongst all the astroturf.

It's hard even by observing a protest in person. It's tricky to judge the numbers in a crowd and compare that to the population of a city.


Regarding the protests breaking the bubble, are the protests actually taking place in the places where those who consume racist news sources are? And does the local news spin this as "violent black criminals starting fights and looting things" or "peaceful protestors protesting racist police killings beaten and shot at by violent police"?


quote:
Violent racists are exposing themselves to anybody who didn't believe they existed.

As someone whose main sources of US news are the BBC, hackernews and the reddit main page, I haven't seen this. Is it simply not reported on?
It hasn't been mentioned by my online acquaintances either when talking about the protests.
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USranknop
3 years ago
quote:
The main reason I've not been trying to actually argue about whether the protests are good is because what I really care about is pushing for a social environment where people don't vocally assume those who disagree with them are either stupid, ignorant or evil, not the object-level debate about whether the protests are worthwhile.


quote:
My own views are that I don't know either way whether the US protests are worthwhile


I don't think you're stupid or evil, and I'm happy to help fill in the gaps in knowledge, of course you should get information from multiple sources.

quote:
It's hard even by observing a protest in person. It's tricky to judge the numbers in a crowd and compare that to the population of a city.


I file this under nobody's getting out a calculator to figure it out. If the streets are full and you can hear them from miles away, wow that's a lot of people. I've had a hard time finding a number for the total size of the protest, there are probably estimates of various bias for individual cities if anybody wants to do the arithmetic.

quote:
Regarding the protests breaking the bubble, are the protests actually taking place in the places where those who consume racist news sources are?


Signs point to yes.

I happen to live in a small city in a mostly conservative region and the protest is growing.

quote:
As someone whose main sources of US news are the BBC, hackernews and the reddit main page, I haven't seen this.


I've experienced intimidation tactics firsthand. While we were marching with the protesters, there was a handful of people with a backpack full of fireworks throwing them at protesters and police trying to instigate. By fireworks I mean mortar shells thrown by hand. On the way home pickup trucks flying confederate flags were circling the blocks between downtown and the black neighborhood to intimidate people.

Most protests I've been to have a counter-protest, people holding signs on the other side of the street. There was no counter-protest to this one, only intimidation. This tells you a lot.

I recommend Reuters as a relatively neutral source of US news. Most of what I see on Twitter is one-sided, but when you sort through it there are a lot of firings and resignations going on in police departments across the country due to the people demanding it.
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3 years ago
due to protests in usa
german government just started a sciencific study about racial profiling and tendencies here (which is probably not much compared to us, although existing for sure).
just to let you know yet those protests had impact globally.
guess sometimes it just needs a riot to get shit done instead of voting the right party which then wont act or being unable to act due to medieval constitions.

that a columbus statue got removed shocked me a bit tho...

and about this 75 year old to be an antifa rioter faking his own bloody head trauma to emp attack police batons....
man, i admit i did not have this on my trump bullshit bingo cards

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USranknop
3 years ago
Many of the statues being removed are of Confederate war figures, the losing side of the American Civil War. These statues are not from the Civil War era, rather they were mostly erected decades later during the "Jim Crow" era to intimidate black people. Memorials immediately after the war were mostly in memory of soldiers, not their leaders.

https://www.history.com/news/how-the-u-s-got-so-many-confederate-monuments

Separately, Christopher Columbus was a notoriously cruel slave trader. This topic comes up every year because Columbus Day is a holiday in USA.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christopher_Columbus#Criticism_and_defense_in_modern_scholarship
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3 years ago
im guessing theres some lack in our schools about europeans and slavery about that time
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Lynx
https://m.facebook.com/watch/?v=291747708897364&_rdr
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