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Bertha

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5 years ago
So some people said bertha is ineffective.....
http://zero-k.info/Battles/Detail/631382

1 bertha wrecked everything in mid without any chance to counter it. this thing needs to be removed.
+3 / -0


5 years ago
What's this!? Bertha being effective on a porc map with safe cliffs? It can't be!!

[Spoiler]
+1 / -0

5 years ago
hooray...
more useful comments
+1 / -0


5 years ago
Berthas shine on large porcy maps with safe cliffs because of the range bonus plus the fact that the enemy has to get within silo range of bertha, which is hard cuz it's a porc map. On smaller maps, bertha is basically so counterable that it's not even worth while. Also note the battle in question was a 11v11 so one player could safely make berthas behind the front lines.
+2 / -0
i play long enough that i know the status quo.
this post is a request to CHANGE the status quo if that was not clear...
+0 / -0
- Decreasing range: Doesn't help in this case. (Range bonus still)
- Increasing spray angle: Maybe, but will still damage stuff in porcy safe cliff games.
- Increasing reload time: Ehhh, maybe.
- Decreasing damage: Could work.

Major issue I see is that bertha costs 5k. It needs to be worth 5k otherwise it becomes another detriment that most people actively avoid building, and one less useful unit in the game. (Seriously, buff Detri into game ender territory already..)

This issue also plagues striders past dante. A lot of these units simply aren't worth their price tag.
+1 / -0
quote:
This issue also plagues striders past dante. A lot of these units simply aren't worth their price tag.


well, tell me one game, where cata does not make cost then (when not lobster-operated). also, bonkta kills for cost over time. detri could do so too, but thats none of my buisness as i avoid it ;)

@topic: remove the most unfun unit of this game bertha plox!
+1 / -0

5 years ago
Call it Lil Bertha, put it on four legs, and make it cost 2500, and make it fragile (maybe 4-5 Ravens?). It needs to bunker down and become stationary in order to fire. Maybe a bit further range than catapult but current bertha's reload time, half the AOE, maybe same damage. That way we have a plain artillery strider, not designed to murder a unit concentration like Catapult but cause attrition damage.
+1 / -0
Lil Bertha sounds like a mumble rapper.

The fun argument is real. When does making Berthas produce gameplay that is more fun than if the same amount of metal was put into units? It's generally more interesting when it's armies that are fighting each other instead of bases.
+1 / -0

5 years ago
bertha is ok, however requiring energy and maybe a slight range\hp nerf. Maybe a bigger boom death too?
+2 / -0
Last I checked Catapult is not greater than dante's cost. It is on EQUAL ground as dante. Let's take a look at things that are greater than dante's cost:

Funnelweb [4500m]: Gets shut down by 800m of shieldbots. Poor attritioner. Requires 3 or 4 (13.5k-18k) to start to become a threat.
Bantha [10k]: Dies to catapults, 2 ultis, poor close range attack, dies to almost any other normal unit in equal or less cost. Scales better than funnel or Detriment though. Similar pricetag as nuke+1 launch, doesn't provide as much utility as a nuke or normal units.
Detriment [24k]: Price tag puts it 6-16k shy of actual game enders, which provide a leap in terms of utility. Dies to normal units, even fleas. Massive metal waste.

-- Non Striders --

Bertha [5k]: Good attritioner over time on larger maps. Funnelweb should provide same amount of utility as a bertha as it's around the same cost.
Nuke [8k +3.24k/missile]: Potential game ender. Forces enemy to build expensive vulnerable anti-nukes or die.
Singularity Reactor [4k]: Provides a massive 225 energy income, pushing your overdrive up quite a bit. Pays for itself in minutes.
Zenith [30k]: Cheapest game ender tier thing. Ends the game over time, if constructed.
Starlight [40k]: Most expensive unit in the game. Carves through all but the most porcy of bases.
DRP [35k]: Long range artillery game ender. Fucks you up in multicolored fun.


Funnelweb is getting reworked, so it doesn't really count right now. So why would you ever make a antha over 2 berthas, 1 nuke, almost 3 singus?


IMO the best way to nerf berthas would be to increase the price tag to 6.5-7k or so and/or reduce the height range modifier.
+0 / -0

5 years ago
Straight up, I love Bertha.

As a porcy player it gives me a way to win when I can't make headway against a superior enemy. It also forces the enemy to come to me. It gives a counter to stuff (sort of; not always) that will otherwise massacre me like drp, starlight etc.

Bertha is also somewhat a noob trap in that rushing bertha first thing as opposed to expanding = losing.

That said, I know all too well the pain of seeing that first Bertha shot going overhead and knowing that its the first of a barrage that's going to take out our strong points one by one and there's F-all we can do about it right now. The attrition will only go up and we've just got a major threat to deal with.

All things considered Bertha is maybe a little too good ... but its in no way a game breaker

There are LOTS of ways to deal with it and imo its not impossible to. Big bomber raids can flatten Bertha nests. I've destroyed Bertha nests with Ultimatum. Silo + Shockley + Eos, if cleverly set up, can sort out Bertha. Ive seen Bertha overrun with a ball of 50 fleas before and the 2 lotus defending it did not help. I have destroyed Bertha with another Bertha, and that duel was fun.

In my view Bertha adds an interesting dimension to the game and is another layer of the delicious creamy complexity that is ZK.

It may need a slight nerf.

IMO the easiest way to do that is to add an energy requirement to it so that another way to deal with it is to "pull the plug out" so to speak. An increased explode radius would also help against jam packed bertha nests, so that just a few shields cant shield like 5 berthas. Players would be forced to spread them more to avoid chaining.

BTW I like the idea of a "mini bertha" but not as a replacement, but as a unit on its own. That could be fun.
+1 / -0
quote:
Singularity Reactor [4k]: Provides a massive 225 energy income, pushing your overdrive to at least 200%. Pays for itself in minutes.

I think you've accidentally your math

---

Paladin is derpy. I don't care if it's useful or not, but it shoots its nonsense beam uncontrollably, cannot hit the side of a barn with its derp-gun missiles, and the only reliable weapon it has, Scorpion has more of for cost (3 scorps have 3 lightning guns!).

It would be great for it to have a sensible aesthetic.
+2 / -0

5 years ago
steps to win clusterfucks:
1-invest 5k into bertha
2-get free tacnukes
3-make more berthas
4-laugh as no one can stop it
+0 / -0
Do shields and terraform not work against Berthas?

I don't think that particular Bertha even made cost... and I bet it wouldn't have done if not for that clustered group of emissaries who sat in a huddle as the shield around them died.
+0 / -0

5 years ago
okay, we are talking about two different things:
1.
yes terraform and multiple shields work, but for terraform you need to have enough local buildpower.
thing is that porced up terraform isn´t really helpful in giving you dynamic gameplay either.
Thats the part of Bertha as an unfun unit.
2.
is about if bertha is op or not. i don´t think it is. but it can be hilariously effective, especially if you have
LoS. In an earlier discussion someone said "berta is not effective, why would you build it at all?" I am
too lazy to search it right now.

sum-up:
bertha is not promoting interesting gameplay.
+1 / -0
terraformed razor walls for cover works, shields do not: you need to spend the same amount on shields comparable to a bertha cost (6), plus the energy for regen (2 fusions I think), to fully absorb the dps from a single bertha.
+1 / -0
5 years ago
From the in-game chat, as I remember it:
[player1]How do you counter berthas?
[player2]Resign!
[player3]resign lobsta
[player4]resign



+1 / -0

5 years ago
Raaar is right. Razor on the top of a tall terraformed spire is very effective at tanking Bertha fire. I back mine up with caretakers and shields. It's all about your regeneration exceeding the dps of the Bertha. I've been in games where my porc effectively tied down 3 Berthas because the operator targetted it and got absolutely nowhere. Personally I love it when "mature" porc is engaged by Bertha because it means my team is not under fire and they have more time to do their thing.
+0 / -0
5 years ago
quote:
What's this!? Bertha being effective on a porc map with safe cliffs? It can't be!!
Try making bertha on red comet then come back and talk about it being uncounterable.


What's this!? Claymore being effective on a sea map? It can't be!!
Try making claymore on red comet then come back and talk about it being uncounterable.

+5 / -0
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