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Title: MatchMaker 61
Host: Nobody
Game version: Zero-K v1.6.3.2
Engine version: 104.0.1-271-g2e1a220
Started: 4 months ago
Duration: 14 minutes
Players: 2
Bots: False
Mission: False
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Team 1
Chance of victory: 42.1%

PLrankOrfelius
Team 2
Chance of victory: 57.9%

RUrankivand
Spectators
ATrankATOSTIC

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RUrankivand
4 months ago
(edited 4 months ago)

Have I missed some counter to mass Panthers?

P.S. I must say ZK becomes worse at unit/factories balance with every major update.
+0 / -0


SErankGodde
4 months ago
This video says no
https://clips.twitch.tv/PunchyGlamorousWheelSoonerLater
+0 / -0


USrankFealthas
4 months ago
RUrankivand I think people are just starting to realize how unbalanced some factories are. Patches are mostly good changes imo (no opinion yet on HT changes).
+0 / -0


USrankOflameo
4 months ago
I have no opinion on the Heavy Tank Changes either yet. It does look like removing the EMP death explosion lowered the minimum size of a viable Blitz ball to 2 which makes it less likely for someone to use a Minotaur with is about the price of 3 Blitzes.
+0 / -0

USrankSteel_Blue
4 months ago
nah the EMP on death removal just allows blitzes to be spamed to no end now, with no consequences. 200 damage also instagibs glaives, that's a bigger change imo. I'mma start spamming panthers again I missed them :)
+0 / -0


USrankFealthas
4 months ago
Multiplayer B490408 2 on Desert Needle Small 3.2
Large panther swarms were seen in above replay - note that their emp-ing themselves did not do much to make them suck - they just suck in general. Their stats are quite bad for their cost.
+0 / -0

USrankRyMarq
4 months ago
Scorchers are bad against panthers, and the panther ball with consistently faced by a lower local value of units.

I get its hard because they are also faster, but I am not sure how much this specific game was a sign of imbalance.
+0 / -0



AUrankAdminGoogleFrog
4 months ago
(edited 4 months ago)

RUrankivand you looked like you were doing well that game, but used Ripper poorly.


In this screenshot you have just lost a Ripper after spreading them out in a line. This is bound to happen with Ripper as they are a unit that really needs support (unless fighting the lightest raiders). Your expansion was quite good, due to your cheaper constructor and faster raiders. At this point you should have bunched your five Rippers and swept through the enemy expansion on the West. You needed a bit more scouting and radar to discover the defenses.

I don't even think that mass Ripper is the best idea against Blitz. Dart/Scorcher should still be very good against a small number of Blitz. Fencer is amazing against Blitz due to their poor HP/cost. Some Ripper may be required later in the game to deal with the large swarms, however, I would always use them in clumps or to support other units.

Most of the fights I saw you take were very unfavorable in terms of unit value. You should have been able to avoid these fights using your faster raiders early and through good scouting. Blitz costs more than a Ripper and more than three Scorchers.

TLDR: you missed that Fencer is amazing and that Ripper cannot be used solo.
+1 / -0


DErankkatastrophe
4 months ago
Wait so how is ripper supposed to be used in an ideal scenario?
+0 / -0



AUrankAdminGoogleFrog
4 months ago
Ripper is much better as part of a larger army, either of Ripper or other units. This gives the opposing units less space to flank and spread as well as improving their alpha damage. Five Rippers in a tight clump should 1-shot an approaching Blitz and severely damage any nearby Blitz.
+0 / -0




EErankAdminAnarchid
4 months ago
(edited 4 months ago)

Five rippers sounds like a fine way to give up on being able to raid or expand.

It's a good unit to bring alongside a Ravager or a Domi ball, but as an attempt to counter earli-mid game Blitz raiding it's a fatal mistake.
+0 / -0


RUrankivand
4 months ago
AUrankAdminGoogleFrog, I'll try Fencers next time, however I have always thought that Fencers lose to Panthers of equal cost, therefore I doubt they will be effective. Not to mention that HT has Reapers which eat Fencers for breakfast.

As for Rippers the main idea I had when I spread them out was that they have extremely limited mobility compared to Panthers. So clumped up, they can only be in one place and the rest of chokepoints had to be defended with some other means. Unfortunately, medium porc like Stardust is very inefficient against Panthers, so I had to go with relatively high value porc. I made one porc island at NE side of my territory and had no resources to make another two or three to cover other entrances. So the SW part was supposed to be covered by mobile units. I feel like I'd have had even worse outcome if I clumped up my Rippers as it's trivial to outmaneuver/outrun them. So yeah, with Rippers it's lose-lose situation no matter what you do defensively.

quote:

Five rippers sounds like a fine way to give up on being able to raid or expand.


Of course I had to give up raiding. How is it even possible to raid with Scorchers against a massive army of Panthers?


In the hindsight:
Perhaps I should have made Ravager:Leveler 3:1 ball instead of everything.
The effective defense of my territory is still a question. Maybe terra-trenches?
+0 / -0




EErankAdminAnarchid
4 months ago
(edited 4 months ago)

You get eight slowDarts for one Blitz. Blitzes are less accurate vs small fast units like Darts, so sometimes miss. Even if they hit, they overkill, spending all their damage on just one Dart at a time. Darts are fast, so can chase Blitz reliably and after they caught up, the Blitz isn't going anywhere fast because of the slow. Now that it lost its emp detonation, it doesn't hurt the Darts if one of the blitzes blows up.

TL:DR; darts and domi.
+0 / -0



AUrankAdminGoogleFrog
4 months ago
Most units are great vs Blitz just due to how expensive Blitz is. Now, I know that sounds like a pointless statement but I'm trying to get at the idea of exploiting the inefficiency of Blitz. Here are some things that cost less than Blitz:
  • 3 LLT - These will easily prevent a Blitz from advancing.
  • A Ravager - Blitz takes 27 seconds to kill a single Ravager.
  • Seven Darts - Will easily chase and kill a Blitz.

Don't just spam Darts or Fencers and make sure not to fight larger armies of Blitz. It is best to combine different unit types. Vehicles have good examples of divable and pokable units so it is especially important to make a mix.

Divable units are units that your opponent wants to rapidly close range with and overwhelm. Fencer is a prime example but Dominatrix, Badger and even Ravager often fill the divable role. If your opponent tries to poke and harass such units they will probably lose on attrition.

Pokable units are units that your opponent wants to harass, pick off or wear down from range. Ripper is extremely pokable, as is Scorcher against some raiders. Pokable units are best engaged by loitering around and waiting for a pickoff using superior speed, regeneration and/or range.

With a mix of pokable and divable units you confound your opponent as there is no simple way to engage your army. Blitz are particularly good at efficient diving or poking (depending on the target) due to their EMP and high health.

(Technically these descriptions are relationships between units with many units being alternately divable or pokable depending on their opponent and army size.)
+3 / -0