Me and     Aquanim played a couple 1v1s a few days ago with jumpy vs cloaky. We found that neither of us was able to counter pyros with glaives effectively. Later playing against    midkar I found myself unable to counter them with bandits. I don't see pyro monoculture in 1v1s or people complaining about it (other than some talk about role overlap) so this must be a deficiency on my part. How do you fight them as cloackies and shields? On a small map you can switch to warriors/zeuses/thuglaw, but on bigger maps that means you lose ground control. Is vigorous use of ticks and roaches the only good way? Are there micro tricks to make glaives and bandits more effective against them?
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I sometimes have similar problems in 2v2s or when "1v1ing" in larger team games. Other than using Zeuses, Felon and riots I think spamming LLTs can help.
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Shields: thuglaw into felon and racket for sumo. Also needs defences against pyros. Cloakies: 1-2 pyros can die to cloakies with sufficient micro but it is situational. Other than that Zeus, zeus, zeus, zeus, zeus zeus, zeus. Warrior, warrior! Zeus, zeus, zeus, zeus, zeus zeus, zeus. Warrior, warrior! Zeus, zeus, zeus, zeus, zeus zeus, zeus. Warrior, warrior! Snipeeer! Snipeeer! Zeus, zeus, zeus, zeus, zeus zeus, zeus. Warrior, warrior! Zeus, zeus, zeus, zeus, zeus zeus, zeus. Warrior, warrior! Zeus, zeus, zeus, zeus, zeus zeus, zeus. Warrior, warrior! Snipeeer! Snipeeer! Zeus, zeus, zeus, zeus, zeus zeus, zeus. Warrior, warrior! Zeus, zeus, zeus, zeus, zeus zeus, zeus. Warrior, warrior! Zeus, zeus, zeus, zeus, zeus zeus, zeus. Warrior, warrior!
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What a lovely song. But the unit name is "Sharpshooter". So you'd either have to replace "Zeus" with "Assault/Battle" and "Warrior" with "Riot", or "Snipeeer" with "Sharpshooteeer".
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Glaives should only be used for raids against jump player. They lose to both Pyros and Puppies. Warriors do well against both, but fail to moderators. Zeus does average against Pyro and plays draw against Puppies, does a bit better against Moderators. My recipe to win cloakies against jumpies: 1. Don't play cloakies 2. Use warrior/zeus to counter puppy/pyros and sniper + jethro/scythe (as aimers) to shoot moderators down. 3. Weird startegies like covering zeuses or warriors with shield or invisibility fields worked for me several times, though I can't call them reliable, so see #1. Shield's thuglaw (1:1) ball serves as a base units combo against jumpies. Make sure to turn outlaw on to spot skuttles timely. Jacks and Sumos should be countered by racketeers. Firewalker could be a problem, although it was never used against me, so I have zero experience with it. The setup above has worked fine against equally matched opponents, although    Anarchid beat the strat above easily twice. Still I think it's one of the worst balanced match-ups and biased towards shields winning.
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quote:
"Warrior" with "Riot" |
you misspelled wubrior.
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Ticks and roaches are both great to defend against pyros, especially when combined with radar. Spread your raiders over the map, pyros cannot defend every expansion. As shields, you could get an early felon, which can only be stopped by jack or skuttle, but for that you have bandits.
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Oh yes. Roach is guranteed to make cost against pyros! But roach/tick doesnt work against puppies wich turn invib when in missle mode.
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In my experience, LLT is your best hope. They make epic cost against pyros if built with redundant coverage. If it's a pyro-heavy build you can just avoid them and get surgical with your glaives (requires deep radar coverage but that's a given). If you go warrior/zeus you're sure to get mod/holder pwnt. Sniper will usually make cost (if you survive long enough) but will probably elicit puppy spam, which will rape your sniper and any lingering glaives. Overall, I'd try to exploit jumpbot's lack of a cheap, durable raider with glaives as long as possible. Luring cocky pyros into a tick trap is interesting, but definitely hit-or-miss. As cloakie, you should pray that the jump player starts building a sumo, which will give you enough time to muster an overwhelming raider force (if you're still on par for eco) and take out their mexes quickly. You do have a gremlin in their base, right? I've never had much trouble as shields though. Thug + bandits does well enough since the thug can tank pyros long enough to let the raiders take care of business. I haven't tested, but I think a Thug can toe-to-toe a slowed pyro and win on its own. I'm also a felon-centric player, and at critical mass pyros die to the weaponized bug-zapper no problem.
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quote:
As cloakie, you should pray that the jump player starts building a sumo |
With the current state of Sumo you should pray for your opponent to make one no matter what fac you chose :)
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quote:
I don't see pyro monoculture in 1v1s or people complaining about it (other than some talk about role overlap) so this must be a deficiency on my part. |
It's not because it's easy to use glaives on par with pyros, as equal raider vs raider. It's because they have legitimate counters that just work - zeus and warrior. So at least you have that asymmetric option. I think Kodachi also has a little bit of this. The reason noone complains is that there are more horrible things to talk about atm, which do cause monocultures.
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It's weird that people are saying this when Jumpfac was broadly considered unusable against cloak bot, with no changes to any of those units since then. You can just spam Zeuses and win even on mid sized maps, Zeus shits on Pyro and Puppies and Jack, and you can just curbstomp his comm and any defences with them. This is why we added Moderators, but   ivand says Zeus does well vs moderator?! Tick is always the cloakbot answer to superior raider units. A lot of them are higher weight longer range or have better riot capacity, but the tick will lock enemy raiders down. Pyro is also high weight, they're easier to avoid. If he loses Pyro's early, it's a big cost to him and he loses a ton of control. If you can't do this, transition into Zeus ASAP, which will force moderators and allow you to open the raider game back up again. Shield shouldn't have a problem. For Micro tricks, avoid coming at the enemy in a line and point move orders, the flame will just blast through your whole pack. Overrun pyros using a concave, to maximize their aiming time and minimize their shoot-through. Wait until he starts moving in or jump in, then run at him hard. Never ever let him skirm you a few at a time and thin out your forces. Retreat back from him to your defenses if you don't have local superiority then engage on him when he goes into your static D or when you have a large enough army. His pyro's can survive and jump away and retain their full damage potential, then build up a critical mass. If this happens raid his cons, avoid engaging his pyros, put ticks among your defense line and wait until he engages on you to get the advantage back. Pyro's die very quickly and you can swing the whole game around if you can get his main pyro ball.
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I think it depends a lot on the map you play. If you are playing on a map where the mexes are tightly clustered and the map is large (think Obsidian), you can't attack the jump player in enough places at once that he can't defend them all with Pyros. If you try to go Zeuses early on a big map you're going to get outmanuvered. If on the other hand the map is spread out enough that Glaive harass is effective (then again you still get shit on by puppies) and it has properties which allow a graceful Zeus transition Cloaky probably has the advantage there. Ticks are a nice thought; I have tried them in this matchup and had some success, but the opponent does not always nicely group up their Pyros.
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quote:
It's weird that people are saying this when Jumpfac was broadly considered unusable against cloak bot, with no changes to any of those units since then. |
When was that? After the changes to Placeholder and Moderator?
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 Saktoth, I meant Zeus does better against Moderator in comparison to Warrior and the comparison criteria was that it had better chances to run away from moderator(s) alive, while Warrior is two-shot by moderators (if I remember right). Also I cannot agree that "You can just spam Zeuses and win even on mid sized maps, Zeus shits on Pyro and Puppies and Jack, and you can just curbstomp his comm and any defences with them". As said Puppies vs Zeus ends pretty much in stalemate cost-wise and moderators kill zeuses although not so fast. I'm yet to re-verify if Pyros lose to equivalent cost Zeus army, however it's not a fight smart Jumpy player will take anyway. Pyros are much faster and should be used for deadly raids, to fight with Zeuses there Puppies and Moderators exist. As far as tick is concerned, I'd say it depends on the map a lot. On the hilly maps when it's harder to see coming Pyro raid with radar it might not work well. Having that said, not enough radar coverage is mostly my specific play style issue, so it may not be applicable to everyone.
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Simple. You get a Commander with Slow Beam/Lightning Gun or something similar to disable the Pyros, then kill them dead with Glaives. If enemy Pyros try to jump on your Commander, you stun them and your own com with waiting Ticks and let Glaives chew them to pieces. If Puppies show up, kite them with Glaives (they have slightly more range than Puppies) or keep a Warrior/Wubrior around. Glaives can kill Pyros reliably on their own due to their high DPS, but you HAVE to micro-manage them effectively, and try not to bunch them up too tightly. Ticks are indeed one of a Cloaky player's best options for dealing with Pyros, too, especially since Pyros are pretty much required to get in point-blank range to maximize use of their flamethrowers. Cloaky player must rely on their superior mobility and reconnaissance abilities (cloaked Gremlins) to stay on top, and make sure they don't get surprised when jumpy player suddenly switches to Mod/Holder. On paper, cloaky bots are at a disadvantage against Pyros and other jump/spec bots, but their unique abilities and versatility can more than compensate if used right. In any case, though, one should never forget that regardless of whether or not they have a Cloaky fac, they still have a Commander unit that can be equipped with weapons far better suited to the job. Plus a Field Radar Module, which comes in very handy when vulnerable radar outposts just don't cut it anymore against raiders that can traverse high ground.
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I can't choose a Slow Beam/Lightning Gun loadout for my com after seeing my opponent's factory, and I'm probably going to greatly regret such a decision against another fac. Relying on your commander to fill a hole in your chosen factory is fine, relying on it to counter another specific factory not so much.
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and a sniper commander could still snipe you even if you choose the lightning style commander and even then the jumpers have many choices to evade the lightning gun from affect them too much if anything though it's most likely he chose jumper due to the terrain........ unless that guy is me, because i'm cray and i love the micro and options jumper has in a fight if i'm focused which helps keep me in line in terms of staying in the fight, otherwise... nothing is more fun then taking a sumo and six pyros to goonba stomp on you and burn everything from the center outwards, turning my enemy into a crisp donut of free metal. (TLDR: i'm crasy and will do stupid things because i love jumpers...RAWWWWWWWWWWWR I'M Lulu DEAL WITH IT ^_^) in all seriousness hower, you should have many options against jumpers in a fight, and spiders have things designed to work well against them (because spiders are the most likely to fight jumpers in a mountainous/valley-esc map) which makes this a case of simply preparation. while i don't say at all that you can simply counter them but there are quite a few options you have, just be carefull when going into the fight and always prepare based on information you have but never an assumption.. that gets you killed and i learned that the hard way
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