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Refined Scorpion Concept

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I got started on a neonstorm in this thread: http://zero-k.info/Forum/Thread/20470?postId=144904

It got so out of hand that I moved it here.

Intro
[Spoiler]

Weapon Loadout
[Spoiler]

Stealth and Sensory
[Spoiler]

Full Neon Drone Mechanic (apparently Flipstips idea)
[Spoiler]

Keeping Scorpion Near the Action
[Spoiler]

Summary

Balance

The proposed scorpion loses:
- Burst stun
- AoE dgun
- Precision weapons
- LoS
- Cheap cloaking

But gains:
+ Large reusable slowing weapon
+ Radar or Tremor Sense
+ A healing mechanic
+ A reclaim mechanic and an interesting means of mitigating LoS loss

Theme and Intention
The proposed scorpion would better parallel real life scorpions, as well as being more conceptually clear, but also has more going on than the old one. Having drones as a truly secondary feature of a strider is afaik yet untested, as usually the effect is so powerful that it overshadows anything else the strider can do.

I am aware that the current iteration of the scorpion strider is fine, and that there are other areas that are higher priority. I’d be surprised if this went anywhere, but it’d be a shame to flesh out the ideas so much then not share it.
+0 / -0


8 years ago
I would hesistate to change scorpion it works good imo.
Better than other striders..

But there is still room for new striders. What I wanted for some time is kind of giant "tuneler" machine.
It would simply terraform its way through any obstacles automagically, it would technically build a wide ramp from its point to destination.

I imagined it to be a big shield with directional armor and nano turrets.

Perhaps try to evolve this concept and add new unit instead?
+6 / -0
8 years ago
Silly me, but any chance for a Jugglenaut/Juggernauth return?
[Spoiler]
+1 / -0


8 years ago
Jugglenaut was bad and it should feel bad.

Retrievable nonzero-cost drones with support powers sound like a Funnelweb from a better parallel universe.

I think Scorpion is mostly fine now. I perceive its role as a Dante that is weaker in direct combat, but featuring cloak and an antiheavy sidearm, so unlike Ulti it can act as a reusable heavy-killer and also kill reasonable quantities of small targets.

So, dante: good at killing swarms and melting things, but no antiheavy power except brute firepower, very reusable.
Scorpion: moderate at killing swarms, good at killing heavies, reusable.
Ulti: sucks for killing swarms, excellent at killing heavies, almost non-reusable.

If it were to be buffed, i'd indeed give it speed (maybe in exchange for LoS).

It's not possible to make non-global wobble reductors, and scorpion having a wobble reductor sidearm sounds even worse than Reef with anti.
+1 / -0
How to fix any unit:
[Spoiler]

Cloaked unit generally speaking benefit a lot from burst potential. They come, zaps, cloaks and falls back while recloaked.

Drones are unfun in any kind of situation.
+2 / -0

8 years ago
EErankAdminAnarchid - was the Jugglenaut a proper model or still an old .3DO? I'd think the Jugglenaut could be revived as the terraformer that Licho was talking about. I'd love to see more support-units in the Strider Hub rather than offense units - there's no cloakgen, no nanolathes, no AA, none of that stuff.
+0 / -0
EErankAdminAnarchid
Is wobble reductor that bad? How much could it possibly be worth? Advanced radar is only worth like 500 and that comes with deep penetration free (bargain bin Friday in the redlight district I guess). Since you don't get that extra radar range, it's only being applied to normal radars, the scorpion itself, and anything else you build with it. I don't really see it being abusable or unfun.

Why buff speed? It's already AT and cloak, if it's fast too that'll make it very difficult to catch indeed.

PLrankOrfelius
They do benefit from burst potential, and thus we have a lot of burst stealthers (blastwing, tick, roach, skuttle, infiltrator, scythe, ultimatum, ducks, snakes). I'd like something different.

I think you aversion to drones is coloured by the current state of them. The suggested 'drones' are actually closer to true units. They are under your control and cost resources. There are only two units with drones, and they basically do the same thing. It seems like low hanging fruit to me.

CZrankAdminLicho
Out of curiosity, which strider does scorpion work better than? I'm not disagreeing I'm just wondering if there's consensus on this. I see striders as very important to get right, since they are the 'loudest' part of the game people see.

[Spoiler]
+0 / -0


8 years ago
AUrankSnuggleBass atm I think that bantha is a bit odd, but generally they do all work atm. Scorpion just seems very interesting unit compared to blandness of say bantha or even detriment (which is just a giant walker with giant guns).
+1 / -0

8 years ago
CZrankAdminLicho - I agree. Imho, the biggest problem with the striders is so many of them are classic BA-style units that never got proper TLC. I mean, the Detriment, the Dante, and the Bantha feel like "random assortment of weapons duct-taped together into Assault, Raider, and Skirmisher format" in typical TAUIP-style.

The two spider striders, while messiest, are also the ones that best celebrate the fun powers of ZK units. Where's the outlaw waves? The jumpers? The capture-beams? The slow-beams? The disarmnament-beams? The nanolathes? The terraforming-weapons? Where's all the fun stuff?
+1 / -0

8 years ago
Fair. Very.

Do you think it better to channel effort into new striders or bettering old ones?

I think detriment needs a fix for both balance and personality reasons. It just gets too wrecked too often by too much, and it needs to be the biggest badass there is. It gets shredded by similar cost of most things. It's ability to riot seems insufficient. True it may have the ability to cause attrition and retreat, but that's not really the unit design, and it's a very disruptable plan considering just how all-in the typical detriment user is.

I'd like to see it have something epic. Perma tremor in 360. Or a large CD jump to make it less of a clumsy jankstack. Loads and fires free quake missiles at will. A flamethrower with 1200 range. Dgun that damages every opposing unit on the map for 100. Literally comes into play with a silencer in its suit. This is where neonstorms are supposed to be let loose, but detri just seems a very conservative exemplar for mobile brutality. Big things need to do more than just be big, because the resources available to opponents at that point in the game gives them every tool available to counter big... All eggs in one big slow clumsy counteable basket is rarely the optimal play.
+0 / -0


8 years ago
quote:
was the Jugglenaut a proper model or still an old .3DO

Juggernaut model was dot three decades old.

quote:
Why buff speed? It's already AT and cloak, if it's fast too that'll make it very difficult to catch indeed.

I feel like it buffs its strength of picking engagements. I wouldn't go for a large buff though, and i'm not even convinced it needs a buff.

quote:
Is wobble reductor that bad?

It is a global ability with no interplay (except for jammers/cloakers), and with Scorpion it would be mounted on a frontline cloaked strider. This is way too much duct tape for my taste.
+1 / -0


8 years ago
Yeah imo focus on new striders..

You can have epic without giant weapons.. imagine tunneler slowly moving at you with units lined up behind its shield, moving slow but killing every structure it runs over and pushing mobile units aside, moving right across the sea (terraforming land below it), through the giant wall you built into your base..

You need to get behind its shield to attack from behind before its too late.. maybe a drop will do?


+0 / -0

8 years ago
From an aesthetic standpoint, I dislike the obscene pile of incoherent weapons on the classic striders - at the very least, could we see some consolidation on the classic striders' weapons? I mean, if the Scorpion is going to deal damage and have lightning, why not make its main weapons into rapid-fire lightning guns and remove the particle-beams altogether? Then its tail could be exclusively a multi-stunner.

The Danti is similarly incoherent. At least the pile of weapons on the Bantha each serve distinct purposes, while the Dante's flamethrower, heatray, and missiles just become a blur of noisy red stuff belching out of the unit.
+0 / -1


8 years ago
my 2c

I always liked the scorp and get excited when I see it used, but its hard to use it well.

It would be better at what it does if it was faster moving - that's probably the one change I would like. Its hard to use it to hunt heavies and striders, when the heavies and striders all move much faster than the scorp.
+0 / -0
8 years ago
Striders would be nice if they can have great synergy with regular armies, spearheading an attack, breaking a stalemate so other units can break through a porcline, stunning a big threat...
+1 / -0

8 years ago
BErankFlipstip

I think the FunnyWeb was intended to be a support-strider instead of a soloist. Unfortunately it didn't really turn out that way.
+0 / -0
8 years ago
there was once a time when i made 17 times cost with rush scorpion... ahh good times
+1 / -0
Having tried a rush scorpion recently, i can tell you it works best given line-move to define the path of destruction, with firestate set to "fire-at-will".

Just remember to micromanage the scorpion's firestate back to "hold fire" when you need it to run away from planes and gunships.

It's also the most rushable unescorted strider, though i wonder about the rushability of ultimatum with Outlaw escort.
+0 / -0