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suggestions (mainly balance changes)

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I suggest a big list of changes to fix ZK balance and to encourage variety regardless of map type. And also some "flavour" changes.

Most of them consist of simply changing numbers on text files and should be easy to implement...

...If people agree on them, which is unlikely :).

***** NOTE: UPDATED THE LIST ON 2015/12/19 *****


--- general changes

- improve heat ray consistency : decrease max dps by 33%, but make it drop to 33% at max range instead of 0% (or 10% or something, don't know )
(this affects dante, scorcher, battle commanders and doomsday machine)
a 400-to-0 dps heat ray would change to 266-to-88 dps, scorcher would change from 314-to-0 to about 200-to-65

- standardize idle regen timer to 5s of not taking damage on all units

- add 2 HP/s idle regen for all units without explicit regen

- add 10 HP/s combat regen for all striders that didn't have it, including big ships

- improve terrain slope tolerance for wheeled and tracked vehicles
(doesn't need to be as good as robots, but should be enough to make them less likely to get stuck on craters or beach slopes)

- reduce standard armored form damage resistance from 75% to 60% (they become 2.5x tougher, not 4x)
(affects some static defenses and halberd hovercraft)

- standardize max stun times for paralyzer weapons : 3s in general, 10s for tick (down from 16), 20s for infiltrator and shock missile (shock missile down from 45s, infiltrator down from 30s)

- standardize sight ranges : 550 for cheap ground units, 700 for expensive units and aircraft

- prevent air transports from grabbing enemy units

- prevent light air transports from grabbing ships

- prevent heavy air transport from loading bantha and detriment (maybe more expensive air transport unit could be added)

- drone leash ranges X : if drone strays more than X range away from owner, push move order to move to X/2 range of owner along the owner-drone vector

- lots of units need some tuning to their move animations, especially robots, for many it could be improved by simply speeding it up to match the move speed. It'd be best if they had dynamic walk animations that varied with unit speed %.

- some vertically launched missiles fly too high, arguably higher than their range. Reduce vertical flight times (happens on reef, impaler, S.L.A.M commander module, detriment) and decrease missile speed to compensate.


--- commander changes

- add 500 HP for all commanders
- make all commanders move 10% faster
- increase range by 10% on beam laser, light particle beam, disruptor beam, heavy particle beam, riot cannon, lightning gun, flamethrower
- increase damage by 10% on flame thrower
- increase damage by 10% on riot cannon
- increase damage by 20% on heavy particle beam
- increase base health regen from 5 to 15HP/s at level 3+ on all chassis
- add torpedo weapon module : 400 range, 300 damage, 3s reload time, 48 aoe, homing, 300 projectile speed
- set drone leash range to 600, reduce drone HP by 25%
- high density plating : reduce cost from 425 to 375
- lower strike commander's regen per level from 7.5 to 5 HP/s (with the extra at level 3 it'll end up with 35/s at level 5 without modules, same as now)
- add an extra 10 HP/s regen to battle commanders at level 3 ( 25/s at level 5 without modules)
- remove the disintegrator gun module (1 hit-kill weapons that ignore enemy HP are toxic, dgun allows commanders to situationally deal lots of damage without investing in damage at all)


- commander ressurrectability (pick one):
a) commanders can no longer be revived, strider hub can rebuild each of the dead commanders for the team at their latest upgrade state at 50% of original cost
b) athena ressurrection speed is tripled when reviving commander wreckages for the same team
c) do nothing


--- specific unit changes

CLOAKY BOTS
- warrior : increase range from 270 to 300
- tick : reduce cost to from 120 to 90 100, make it amphibious with 50% speed penalty
- spectre : reduce reload time from 18s to 12s 15s (dps from 83 to 100), cloak E/s requirements up from 1/5 to 3/15 2/10
- gremlin : reduce cost from 150 to 140
- zeus : add 5 HP/s combat regen and increase range to 300 from 280, remove inaccuracy, make it amphibious

SHIELD BOTS
- roach : make it amphibious with 50% speed penalty
- felon : reduce shield drain per 108 dmg from 75 to 50, reduce fire rate by 50% (350 dps at 450 range is still very good)
- racketeer : (pick one)
a) do nothing
b) increase reload time from 5s to 7.5s, change damage from 1000 disarm to 200+600 paralyze damage (27+80 paralyze dps)
c) increase reload time from 5s to 7.5s, change damage from 1000 disarm to 500 and 64 aoe and make it a slower non-homing rocket (67 dps)

SPIDERS
- redback : increase cost from 280 to 320, range from 300 to 350, speed from 1.7 to 1.8, HP from 900 to 1200
- crabe : increase HP to 5500 but decrease armored form damage resistance from 66% to 33% (1.5x tougher, instead of 3x), make it amphibious
(could use some animation tweaks to movement and armored form, and fix the model's cannon hole textures)
- infiltrator : reduce cloak cost from 4/12 to 2/6 E/s
- tarantula : reduce cost from 400 to 370
- venom : increase reload time from 1.75s to 2.25s

HOVERS
- scalpel : increase model size 15%, reduce AOE from 96 to 48, increase cost from 220 to 260 240
- mace : increase range from 345 to 370
- penetrator : change model proportions, make model base a bit wider and not as long, with a bigger turret and thicker barrel
(currently turret looks too small for such a thick and powerful beam)

VEHICLES
- ravager : make it amphibious with 25% speed penalty underwater
- impaler : reduce range from 1500 to 1400 and add 64 aoe and the reef's missile explosion effect, reduce speed by 10%
- slasher : increase cost from 140 to 170 160

AMPHIBIOUS BOTS
- reduce water regen to 10HP/s on all cases (currently buoys have 60HP/s!)
- angler : increase speed by 10%, increase range from 600 to 700 and dmg per missile from 150 to 200 (25% dps increase)
- archer : remove water tank mechanic, change weapon to "Azure Beam laser", a 120 dps light blue beam laser with 300 range that gets a 15% damage boost while standing on water
- buoy : reduce slow damage per shot from 250 to 150

TANKS
- reaper : make it amphibious with 25% speed penalty underwater
- goliath : make it amphibious with 25% speed penalty underwater
- welder : make it amphibious with 25% speed penalty underwater
- copperhead : reduce range from 900 to 800, increase aoe from 32 to 64, increase HP from 1200 to 1700, reduce speed by 20%
- tremor : increase model size by 20%
- panther : increase model size by 20%, increase HP from 1100 to 1300, increase range from 260 to 300 280
- pillager : increase model size by 20%
- banisher : (pick one)
a) do nothing
b) increase cost from 520 to 720, double reload time (dps from 190 to 95), increase range from 340 to 520


AIRPLANES
- raven : no longer slows down or dives near target, make bomb homing, so it never misses, increase cost to 350
- hawk : increase dps from 96 to 120 and reduce range from 800 to 700
- thunderbird : (pick one)
a) reduce max disarm time from 20s to 10s
b) replace it with a 5s stun
- swift : set attack safety distance to 350
(attack safety distance makes them abort the dive if too close to their target to avoid collisions, explosions and enemy fire)
- vulture : remove radar jammer reduce radar jamming range from 700+ to 400 and increase cost by from 340 to 460
- wyvern : increase reload time from 8s to 20s and base rearm time from 5s to 10s

GUNSHIPS
- banshee : reduce hit points from 860 to 820 and increase cost from 220 to 230
- valkyrie : increase cost from 80 to 180 and HP from 300 to 600
- vindicator : increase cost from 500 to 1000, increase HP from 1100 to 2500, increase weapon ranges from 100 (wtf) to 350, remove the dedicated AA laser (keep only two 50 dps lasers)
- black dawn : increase cost from 900 to 1000
- krow : increase model size 20%, increase flight altitude from 100 to 180, increase laser range from 450 to 500 and drastically reduce number of bombs from 75 to 30

SPECIALIST BOTS
- moderator : increase model size and height by 25% (to give it a higher firing point), range from 420 to 550, cost from 240 to 380, HP from 450 to 650, reduce dmg per shot from 500 to 350 and adjust reload time to keep dps
- firewalker : shoot two big fireballs instead of many and make their fire AOE bigger (something like the new blastwing explosion : higher single target dmg, more consistency, less total aoe)
- sumo : add option to toggle between gravity beams and 2x 120 dps beam lasers with 400 range
- archangel : reduce cost from 550 to 480

SHIPS
- shredder : decrease weapon dps by 15%
- snake : change the weapon to a slower 400 range homing torpedo with 360 dmg, 4s reload, 48 aoe and without slow damage
- serpent : increase aoe to 48 and reduce reload time from 8s to 6s (+33% dps)
- hunter : increase cost from 350 to 450, range from 350 to 450 and damage by 50% (120 dps)
- crusader : increase cost from 550 to 620
- skeeter : increase cost from 70 to 130, increase range from 260 to 360, increase HP from 240 to 440, change damage from 45+(180 disarm) to 90+(180 paralyze) with 4s cooldown instead of 2
- typhoon : increase cost from 320 to 360

STRIDERS/BIG SHIPS
- scorpion : add 30HP/s combat regen, increase HP from 12K to 13K and weapon ranges to 500 from 420/470
- reef : drastically reduce turn rate and acceleration, reduce speed by 20%, set drone leash range to 1000, reduce drone dps by 33%, increase HP from 7200 to 10000, increase cost from 3500 to 5500
- warlord : drastically reduce turn rate and acceleration, increase cost from 3800 to 4800, make batteries fire individual shots instead of bursts of 3 (keep dps)
(warlord could also use a model change, its long and narrow model doesn't fit the game)
- funnelweb : set drone leash range to 800, reduce drone HP by 25%, make it amphibious
- detriment : increase gauss range from 600 to 800 and damage per shot by 50%, double the reload time of missiles (halving dps) and increase range from 900 to 1200, drastically reduce death blast to something like the Bantha death blast
- bantha : increase lightning range from 465 to 500, do something to its emp missiles, they're totally random
(change bantha model to make its head look bigger and more powerful, somehow, if it's supposed to be its main weapon)

STATIC DEFENSES
- screamer : remove stockpiling mechanic, increase reload time from 1.8s to 8s (200 dps)
- big bertha : increase cost from 5000 to 6500, reduce dps by 15%
- hacksaw : increase cost from 220 to 300, increase hp from 580 to 1200, increase range from 420 to 600
- behemoth : fire individual shots instead of bursts of 3 (keep dps)
- gauss : reduce cost from 400 to 320
(gauss model could use a replacement to something that looks sturdier when open)
- missile silo : increase cost from 1200 to 1500
+2 / -0
Skasi
TL;DR of "general changes" category: Make all units more like each other, nerf strengths and buff weaknesses.

TL;DR of "commander changes" category: Buff almost everything about commanders.

"specific unit changes" category was TL;DR.
+1 / -0

8 years ago
I dont know why you thought anyone would care about this lol
+1 / -0

8 years ago
so much time wasted to make it
+1 / -0

8 years ago
I knew that, but i did it anyway ;)

people are people.
+4 / -0
None of these have any explanation on why the change is good. This is especially bad since most of them don't make sense and are against design goals.
+4 / -0
You could have waited for boxing day with this wonderful present PTrankraaar :D

1. General changes
1.1. Heatray consistency sounds great but I dunno about the exact proposed changes.
1.2. That would not be goo at all. Every light unit would start acting up like a glaive which would spoil the dynamics of the game and give a lot of power to more bursty weapons (as if they werent too strong already).
1.3. Standardizing these would be awesome.
1.4. Sure I guess? More standardization is better. Striders need their regen and funnel needs its regen lowered.
1.5. Messes up map designs that were already established. It is already really wonky and if changed it could possibly mess up things even more. Other than that... why is this exactly needed? I guess small change would not hurt after all? I just have some concerns.
1.6. Again standardization is good and all armor statuses should give equal bonus.
1.7. That would make the tick and shockley a bit useless and venom, zeus and panther much much stronger. The whole point of Spy is so that it can stun lock a single target. Regardless it doesn't need a nerf at all. All these changes are bolocks and messes up with balance of all emp units.
1.8. No. I said that standardization is good but not in this case. That would make most units useless and make them too powerful in case of having vision.
1.9. I would like to not have my units napped when they are still. It creates a boring QTE. However imo naps are an interesting parts of the game and would settle for 'only able to nap when emped' mechanic.
1.10. Yes. It is quite ridiculous.
1.11. Don't have opinion for that.
1.12. Don't know how it is even done but could be an interesting factor.
1.13. Its mostly for visual effect I think. But it looks kinda silly regardless.

2. Commander changes
Generally speaking: why?
In regards of resurectability: this is not Metal Factions.

...

I have ran out of steam at this point. Too much things introduced at once is not a good method of presentation. It should have been spread over time in different threads.

tl;dr You basically want to make be more like Metal Wars.

Edit: I actually skimped over the unit changes and I feel like all of these are just... random. Give some additional explanations and such.
+1 / -0
8 years ago
Wat? Engiene does not allow healing weapons? You jsut ruined my troll dream...
+1 / -0
8 years ago
quote:
𝕺orsh said on November 22, 2015, 14:50 :
play zero k and you can make suggestions on the forums and all the devs will show up to argue about why your suggestion is stupid and then debate about how hard it would be to implement
+1 / -0


8 years ago
The only idea I immediately liked here was buffing the less effective com weapons - dont see many people using flamethrower, lightening gun or missile launcher on coms
+0 / -0
make storage cheaper and super flimsy (like windmill/metal maker flimsy). the idea being make storing resources risky rather than just costly
+0 / -0

8 years ago
quote:
1.4. Sure I guess? More standardization is better. Striders need their regen and funnel needs its regen lowered.

Next stable it does.
+2 / -0
8 years ago
at the moment licho out-ranges hacksaw. licho destroys it without being hit once
+0 / -0

8 years ago
why does funnel need its regen lowered?
+0 / -0
8 years ago
1. It doesn't need it
2. It already has enormous sustain with its shields and massive hp there is no reason to give it above average hp regen. Besides Detri it has the most hp regen in the game I believe.
+0 / -0
Skasi
8 years ago
Reasons for Funnelweb's autoregen reduction were provided in the relevant pull request.
+0 / -0

8 years ago
My answer to most of these is "why?" but I'll cherrypick some which I have the most problems with:

Tick doesn't need cost reduction, it's good already
Spectre was at 15s reload and got nerfed to 18 with good reason, 12 would be insane, and you don't have enough snipers that the energy requirement is relevant
Increasing Scalpel cost to 280 probably totally kills the unit (and Hover with it) even without any of the other nerfs
idk why you want all the assaults to be amphibious, seems ridiculous
Isn't your change to Banisher pretty much just reverting it to the old version which was bad and barely anyone built? Tank needs a unit in that general cost range.
Raven would be both quicktime action hell and hella OP
You're basically suggesting reverting the Firewalker to its old state which was utterly worthless against shields (a large part of why it was changed)
the stockpiling mechanic is the entire point of screamer
+1 / -0

8 years ago
From my experience balance discussions rarely work, and ZK has extreme units that keep each other in check, so there's lots of room for units to be OP because people will tell you that "they can still be countered by X". In ZK, X is often not a mix of normal units with an effective archetype (like riots vs raiders or artillery vs static defenses), but a counter gimmick, like ultimatums, terraformed walls, disarm planes, disarm missile bots, stun missiles, feeding drones to screamers, etc.

Game is still nice, and there's lots of work put into it, but I couldn't just play this without complaining.

consider these two ways to look at units in ZK:

a) check if they are too cost effective compared to other options to achieve victory, even if just on a niche. Does it have reasonable counter-play? Defining "reasonable" isn't easy.

b) look at the unit, how big it is, how armored does it look, what weapons does it appear to have. Compare it to other units in the game. Compare that intuition to how it actually behaves in the game. Does it make sense?

This matters.

A big robot with big guns on its arms, but with most of its firepower/range combo coming from a small hole in its head violates the "make sense" clause.

An armed heavy air transport with "twin laser guns and automated cargo ejection system make it ideal for drops into hot LZs" that actually has low hitpoints/cost, tiny range and can carry ground units that cost 48x more and are obviously too big violates the "make sense" clause. If you want it to be cheaper make a new model and remove its weapons and change the description.

A problem with the "buff strengths, nerf weaknesses" is that, taken to the extreme, it can lead to edge-case units that are OP when used in a specific situation but otherwise are generally useless. Like dirt cheap air transports carrying strong but slow units across the map early in the game.

I didn't mention ultimatum strider killer, but it also kind of violates the "makes sense" clause, although in a flavourful way. Instakill weapons are toxic.


some reasons :

- why standardize sight ranges? why not? why should light units and artillery have 500-600 sight range and riots and assaults have 400? I agree some special units can have lower range, like fleas or drones. This isn't a big deal though.

- why nerf transports' raw cost-effectiveness at transporting and buff their HP? because they're OP if the enemy has low air defenses (as seen from the countless riot drop rushes) and yet suck if the opponent has AA coverage. You can't reliably use the "heavy" air transport to pick up a vulnerable unit under fire.

- why buff commanders? Because devs built this great whole system built around custom commanders and unlockable modules and yet in-game they're PATHETIC. They can become passable if you invest in them, but even then they can be easily countered. Why does the game even need specific very high cost-effective counters to mediocre units that can be easily killed? It's like devs were cynical and bait players with that feature, and then when you actually play the commanders kind of suck and the resident veterans routinely use the hard counters and make fun of the player for trying to do what intuitively made sense in the first place.

- why try to standardize and boost regen on units in general? because repairing them is a time-consuming and energy-inefficient process for expensive units with low HP/cost (Strider's HP/cost isn't very high, same with commanders), and average ground units are at a considerable disadvantage compared to units with built-in regen like banshees or amphibious bots (on water maps only). Why do glaives and scythes have regen, but zeus don't? That kind of violate the "makes sense" clause.

- why make miscellaneous heavy units amphibious? because it will lead to more variety in maps with water without having to add new units. It also makes some sense.

- why buff mobile AA and nerf air? Because anti-ground/hybrid air units are too good. Try 1v1 or small team games, compare the difficulty of fighting someone decent that built ground+air without building air units of your own to the situation where you face the same player ground vs ground only.

- why buff sea sub and anti-sub weapons and nerf big ships? There's an expected bias to ships being higher weight units with longer range than ground units, especially if they are visually bigger, but current subs had pathetically low range and somewhat low dps, seeing current raider subs clumped together in groups like fish in a pond violates the "makes sense" clause. This is a way of giving sea-locked units clearer counters to other units that move underwater, namely ampbihibious bots that are currently dominating sea maps. Why nerf reefs? because they're ridiculously OP and frustrating to fight against. Why nerf warlords? because they are too strong after the buffs to anti-sub units and the removal of the gimmick of them firing all guns at once, wasting most of their dmg potential.

- why buff spectre? it's supposed to be an artillery/anti-heavy, but it has 83 dps at 700 range for 750 cost. Compare that to penetrator's 150 dps at 1000 range, or precise artillery units with much higher ranges. It just doesn't deal enough damage, that's why I tried to boost the damage and nerf the gimmick (shooting while cloaked) instead.

- why nerf armored dmg reduction on buildings and units? because it's broken. Halberds are broken, they're fast damage sponges with 5k effective HP for 240 cost. Armored razors can tank absurd amounts of damage.

- why shift crabe's toughness to its mobile form? It's "armored" pose and the 3x bonus that came with it violates the "makes sense" clause, and the unit was too weak to be used without taking advantage of it.

- why remove the slowdown/dive from raven and increase cost? having a bomber slowing down and diving near its target instead of doing the opposite violates the "makes sense" clause. It won't miss its targets because the bomb would also become homing. It shouldn't become OP because I'd also buff mobile AA, namely ground AA.

- why change banisher? well...The factory has two supposed raider/riot units, and banisher looks like a big missile launcher with big fat missiles. Giving it the current low reload time and short range violates the "makes sense" clause.

- why reduce felon dps but make it more shield-efficient? because it led to some weird interactions where the damage dealt by the shield ball was too defined by the amount of shields instead of the amount of felons, and it drained itself "dry" too easily if it ran into a closed razor or halberd.

- why nerf bertha? Because it is ridiculously OP. for 5K metal you get almost 300 dps at 6K range, with 0 energy cost. At mid range it's accurate enough to take out heavy units and clumps like shield balls as good as 2 behemoths.

- why remove stockpiling from screamer? When you build it you get low 80 dps, but if you let it stockpile for 5 minutes it gets 900 dps at 2400 range with aoe and completely shuts down offensive enemy air attacks....unless you feed it drones, until someone makes a widget that prevents them from wasting missiles on drones. Is this good gameplay? This violates the "makes sense" clause and is also somewhat broken.

- why nerf stun missile duration? because players could too easily use it to stun ddms/annihilators and drive their army right through it and kill whatever's behind.

- why nerf disarm plane? similar to the above. It is ridiculously OP. Someone really wanting to win can build it, use it on the enemy army and then attack with fast high-dps/cost units like raiders, assaults or even banshees.

- why change detriment? because it violates the "makes sense" clause. The biggest arm guns are currently relatively weak and the nuke death blast makes for some weird interactions where the unit is used as an "armored assault nuke" (like *A commanders) and prevent it from reliably being used with friendly units around.

+0 / -0
So in short you dislike Quant's Rule?

Your most recent post is more useful than the OP because it explains reasons.
+3 / -0
what's quant's rule?

searching it looks like it's the "buff strengths, nerf weaknesses".

If so, I don't dislike it completely, but it shouldn't override the "makes sense" clause.

Having auto-repair systems on an expensive big unit makes sense, for example.
+0 / -0
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