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Trollcom

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LVrankSenaven
19 months ago
(edited 19 months ago)

Balance with new trollcoms is screwed up. Player can build arthy com with 17000 hp and get 1300 elm0 range. So how counter them in lategame? Or how counter jumper com with more then 15000 hp and cluster bomb? It didnt suffer from slow because you can just ugrade spped upgrades. Ok it cost toons of metal but in lategame it cant be stopped. We press enemy back in start but it manages morph com and press us back. Because we cant counter it when it is upgraded. And most annoying is artilery com.
+1 / -0

USrankFealthas
19 months ago
What did you do with your 40k metal? Spam hacksaws or something?

High cost/weight units are artificially strengthened in low skill/team games because people keep suicideing stuff over and over and over. Its harder to suicide something with 10k hp.

These coms don't even do that much damage compared to something like a bantha or dante. Are you trying to fight it with a army of glaives or something?
+1 / -0

LVrankSenaven
19 months ago
I didnt see any trollcom with 40Kmetal. I see that 10 000 metal is enought to build strong arthy com.

+0 / -0

LVrankSenaven
19 months ago
So you said aboput bantha and striders. And how bantha can reclaim while its building? Trollcom can wokr while morphing. Bantha and strider cant!
+0 / -0


AUrankAquanim
19 months ago
If you can get close, Ultimatum should counter just about any com.
+0 / -0

USrankdorsh
19 months ago
a couple welders and a pillager probably stronger than any 10k arty comm
+1 / -0

LVrankSenaven
19 months ago
So how i can get close with ultimatum if enemy can make circling huis units.
So i can counter com with 1300 - 1600 range with pillagers who have only 1100 range? And i can counter com who have also burning napalm warhead? Nice theroy. :D :D
+1 / -0


AUrankAquanim
19 months ago
(edited 19 months ago)

I think the main point is this one:

if your opponent had invested that 10k in a tacsilo/nuke/striders would you have lost anyway? I think the answer in most cases is "probably".

It is unfortunately a slower and more painful way to lose a game.
+1 / -0



AUrankAdminGoogleFrog
19 months ago
I've seen a few of these large commanders. They tend to cost at least 8k metal and don't seem to have an impact worth that cost. They have some advantages, mainly that that are useful while they are under construction, and they seem to fill a role distinct from other strides. But often you can look at an expensive commander and think that cost in something like Catapult would be much more effective.
+3 / -0

GBrankTheEloIsALie
19 months ago
...or in a nuke.
+0 / -0


AUrankSortale
19 months ago
the problem is the slow organic build up of the com, the com is instantly usable at any stage where as a 10k metal unit need to be finished before it is useful.

that said com only scale well to 10k, as per my observation a above 10k com is significantly worse than a 10k or more unit. I think com maybe nerfed a bit, but not to any significant degree.

because you see almost nothing a com does is unaccomplished by a combination of other units.


res, reclaim, build = constructor
cloak = eraser
damage = fighting units

beside this would give rise to counter comm tactic which has been neglected over the comm nerf period. [e.g. comm nap, gnat, infil, ulti]

My suggestion would be to try the troll comm tatic, you will see that's it's very hard. Firepluk has elevated the troll comm into an art form, comparing regular use to his level is like comparing me to GoogleFrog. That would lead to misleading level of power. Best try it then develop tactic [screening, anti heavy].


If you still think it's op, abuse it, Dev will fix it then.
+1 / -0


AUrankSnuggleBass
19 months ago
(edited 19 months ago)

It's an interesting exploration of weight class over time.



At no point is a com morph being efficient (exception, first level morph) compared to its weight in units. An independent worker is better than a nanolathe. A dirtbag is more efficient than an ablative plating. A dante is better than equal cost in battle com. A catapult is better than equal cost in artillery com.

There are a few advantages though:

Weight class - At the start of the game, there is nothing as big as a com. So long as you don't lose it, you can gain a decisive advantage just by attritioning lower weight units then retreating. Each subsequent module benefits from the protection of this weight-class, but this must be compared to the scaling of the units around it as economies take off.

Immediacy - The com is already on the front line if you want it to be. No travel time for your investment.

Micro-installments - Coms are built in short bursts, meaning a granular progression. You get to make use of your investment earlier and there's no risk of having it sniped in fac. You also get to adapt on the fly. Scout a wyvern? Get a single ablative plating on your sup com.

Ambiguity - You scout a dante you make ravens. You scout a morphing com your options are more limited because you don't necessarily know their intentions.

Module synergy - Base inefficiency can be mitigated by investing more heavily in synergistic modules. The value of dps goes up with range and vice versa. Now that coms are uncapped, this means coms can actually have full sets of multiple modules, instead of one or the other.

Flexibility - I'd pay 150 more to put a nano on my dante. Making it amphibious would be good too. Invisible? yes plz. Jumping? Aww yiss!

Despite all this, they are outclassed pound for pound. If you want to make coms work you need to be taking full advantage of all the small things, because its an uphill battle by default. If you're against a troll com, know that, so long as it hasn't killed a bunch of stuff yet (see: suiciding), it represents less of a threat than whatever you spent your metal on. If it's a really big com, does it beat krow? Bantha? Racketeer? Raven? If they support it (they need to if they want to make it actually difficult to kill), add the cost of that support to the com. How much on AA did they spend to protect it? How much on screening? I'm yet to see a com+support that was unkillable assuming equal investment. If you managed to take more of the map, you had more to invest, which means it should have been super killable.

Also, if you're complaining about a particular happenstance where coms felt OP, you need to link a replay and let us judge for ourselves.
+3 / -0

USrankdorsh
19 months ago
i usually make a tbird or some other disarm/disabler if i scout a dante
+0 / -0


DErankAdminmojjj
19 months ago
Make skuttle 1shot any trollcom. Problem solved.
+1 / -3

LVrankSenaven
19 months ago
Skuttle can't 1-shoot 17000k com. And skuttle decloak is 'awesome'.
On large map trollcom impact isnt large but on small map its very large. I tried arthy trollcom and i loose it only because my stupidy.
Ok devs thinks that this isnt problem. Ok. Let it be.

+1 / -0


CHrankConnetable
19 months ago
(edited 19 months ago)

Senaven, why don't you post the replay?

Here it is:


http://zero-k.info/Battles/Detail/399682

As you can see, I tried to skuttle HRranktomicaST 's com but one wasn't enough. The game had been lost well before anyway.

I'm not sure whether I share Senaven's opinion. OFC they are annoying but I don't think I have used all the potential of skuttle against them. I need more time to choose my side.
+0 / -0


AUrankSnuggleBass
19 months ago
Okay so first off, while at some points it had made cost, the continued upgrading actually had it not making cost by the end of the game. While yes making cost when you cost 7,000 or so is a big deal, plenty of things can net you similar value.

Secondly, there was plenty of suicide happening, and plenty of reclaim in general. This was not played even close to optimally. That can't be expected in 9v9 though.

Thirdly, people didn't realise it had 15k hp. They may have reconsidered throwing skuttles at it one at a time if they did.

Fourthly, it still almost died several times, which would have been absolutely disastrous for him.

Fifthly, there were plenty of opportunities to kill it with an ultimatum if you had one. Most of the time it was guarded by a sumo and some AA, an ulti would have no problem there.

Sixthly, it only had like 850 range. That's not bad, but it's not that frightening either. A catapult would have put in standoff for less than its cost (with around 1400 range), which is a win (on top of everything else a cata can do).

Seventhly, its dps wasn't even that good. One cannon. You could sustain through it with 2-3 shields (less than 2k worth).

I understand such things can be frustrating to play against, but I don't think that this game proves that the com is even that good let alone OP.

... just realised you rescinded... POST!
+2 / -0


CHrankConnetable
19 months ago
We just forgot to use Ulti...
+0 / -0

ATrankSkasi
19 months ago
quote:
Okay so first off, while at some points it had made cost, the continued upgrading actually had it not making cost by the end of the game.

How do you know this? Did you watch the commander for the duration of the whole game and estimate its efficiency or calculate it on paper? Do you have a widget that accurately calculates the usefulness of a commander? If so pls share the code, I wanna see how it attempts to do that. Or are you just basing this on an lackluster/insignificent calculation such as XP?
+0 / -0


AUrankSortale
19 months ago
experience bar skasi. the troll com have 1 bar or less.
+0 / -0
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