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ELOs again, how about some ultracompetition?

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CZrankAdminLicho
7 months ago
I would like to make both MM and Custom game elo visible and both affect icon.

Icon would be shaded based on best of those two elos.

Reasoning is that:
  • people like visible elo (for practical reasons too)
  • since it will be dual elo and best off for your icon, you can still focus on serious play in MM and less serious in custom games
  • players who get into MP are probably competetive enough to handle it, other players are likely to stay at coop/private games.
  • this is the way it was in the past, before the unpopular change

Alternative would be to keep rank icon based on MM, but send full elo into game so that custom widgets could show it.


Another thing I'm considering:
  • seasons for MM matches, basically reset elo every 2 months or so

+13 / -0

PLrankzenfur
7 months ago
(edited 7 months ago)

There could be seasons but 2 months are way too often. Especially considering number of MM games. On 1-year or half-year schedule with soft-resetting, why not.

Regarding elo changes, I'm up for it.
+2 / -0



CHrankAdminDeinFreund
7 months ago
(edited 7 months ago)

We can't just use the maximum because casual Elo is a lot more spread. If I troll around I can still easily keep 1900+, which requires some serious investment in MM.

What should work is calculating a conversion factor from standard deviation of the two ratings and then scaling the casual Elo. Then take the maximum of the two. I'd be up for that.

I'm also looking into implementing a better rating system that should help us get better values with the small amount of games we have.

What's the reasoning behind seasons? Force us to regain our fancy icon in unbalanced matches every two months? Tourneys are what we need!
+5 / -1


CZrankAdminLicho
7 months ago
It's basically like tourneys, like overwatch. It is to promote activity too.

Overwatch and SC2 use different ranking systems, maybe we should look into details at those.


+0 / -0



GBrank[GBC]1v0ry_k1ng
7 months ago

+3 / -0

NLrankmalric
7 months ago
Plans sound good!

Regarding ELO reset maybe it would be as interesting that for MM ELO is shown (on page and/or on ladder) only if you have x games in the last z weeks (like 5 games in last 2 weeks for example). Positive side is that it could encourage (some) people to play (the ones that care about the ranking), without messing up balance. When you have less than the threshold a message should be printed like "your ELO is hidden due to having less than x games lately".


+0 / -0



AUrankAdminGoogleFrog
7 months ago
OP sounds good to me. There is an issue with displaying ELO in game. Pick one:
  • Rank display in game is consistent with lobby and site (max of both elos).
  • Rank display in game is relevant to the game type. Custom games have casual elo, MM has ranked elo.

Both systems have drawbacks. The first option is more consistent while the second is probably more useful.
+0 / -0


DErankAdminmojjj
7 months ago
unfortunately, polls have no date. but community said so.


+4 / -0

PLrankOrfelius
7 months ago
(edited 7 months ago)

Sounds great to me.

Though personally I still don't really understand why the casual elo exists in the first place since the big teamgames it is supposed to balance are by design very imbalanced because of the randomness accuring in said games. It is just my opinion on the matter please don't get to uppity lobsters.
+1 / -2


CHrankConnetable
7 months ago
This is of genius! You just solved the ELO issue!

"If I troll around I can still easily keep 1900+" I don't see the problem. Your icon would show 1900, which not everybody can earn (=you are a good player), people can assume you are good in both types of games, and if people really want to check if you are worth 1900 in MM, they can look up as both elo are public.


+0 / -0

USrankFealthas
7 months ago
Occasional elo resets would be fun; trying to work your way up the ladder again.
+5 / -2



CHrankAdminDeinFreund
7 months ago
quote:
CHrankConnetable
This is of genius! You just solved the ELO issue!


Sure, let's just kill the MM competitiveness by only showing the casual Elo. Because taking the max pretty much implies that.
+1 / -0

USrankFealthas
7 months ago
Lets show the lowest elo, so that people feel bad about their low elo and play that gamemmode more to raise it!
+2 / -0


CHrankConnetable
7 months ago
(edited 7 months ago)

CHrankAdminDeinFreund

Good point.. what would you reply to that CZrankAdminLicho ?

But your idea of having modifyer applied to casual elo seems shaky, because the gap between two elos will vary among players.

I have an idea: why not add to the current icons an OUTLINE? The core icon would be MM elo, the outline would be casual elo.

Quick and dirty example:

https://www.google.ch/search?q=star+outline&client=opera&hs=jf4&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiXx42-zqnSAhUMbRQKHSwvCmcQ_AUICCgB&biw=1229&bih=607#imgrc=WzXJ0Xh4njN1rM:

OR a background tainted with the elo color if you think an outline is not visible enough?
+0 / -0

unknownrank[I]burp
7 months ago
PLrankOrfelius prove me that they are random and Elo does not matter in these games. Essentially you're saying that, given a game with randomized players/teams, I cannot predict the outcome better by knowing the Elo composition. I smell some serious fake news here. Just because you repeat wrong things doesn't make them more real. This is not a matter of opinion. The larger the team the longer it takes for each player to reach Elo equilibrium, but they will reach it. How often over the years did we discuss this already?
+1 / -0

unknownrank[I]burp
7 months ago
(edited 7 months ago)

Show team Elo in teamgames and MM Elo in MM games. Isn't that the simplest and best solution? Am I missing something here? I am reluctant to call it "casual" Elo, what makes it more casual than the casual games through the matchmaker?. Why was there a distinction made in first place? For me this is another thing that has been done because someone wanted to do it, or could do it, not because it was really sensible to do.

Otherwise I strongly prefer taking the maximum instead of some mumbo jumbo mixing formula. It's not like the values would converge to a different thing. Why would they?
+2 / -0

unknownrank[I]burp
7 months ago
(edited 7 months ago)

CHrankAdminDeinFreund "If I troll around I can still easily keep 1900+, which requires some serious investment in MM."

No you can't. Unless your "trolling" is very effective, and is thus no trolling at all.

What makes MM different? At most the team size, since right now only very small games are played in MM, making players reach Elo equilibrium faster. Playing garbage makes you spiral downwards in any case, in small games (MM or not) faster, in larger games slower. It's just that.
+1 / -0


CZrankAdminLicho
7 months ago
Difference is, that the "casual" elo is:

  • way too easy to cheat (you can pick enemies)
  • given for all sorts of odd games and situations (10 games of duck in a row)
  • going to reward all sorts of strategies that only work in 14+ games but don't tell you about raw skills in smaller games

Thats why there is both. Having rank does not really diminish the effect of either.
For some it might be easier to attain it in MM games, for some in casual.

It does not matter, your rank won't go down compared to current state and casual elo's tend to be smaller.


Also there is a new infactivity decay implemented. Each week when you don't play mm/casual, you lose 50 elo up to -250. This effect is only temporary and is going to be restored quickly once you start playing.

+2 / -0


CZrankAdminLicho
7 months ago
That being said, I would totally go for single elo (used for balanacing) and then season based bragging elo for MM on top of that.
+4 / -0



GBrank[GBC]1v0ry_k1ng
7 months ago
Seasonal Elo, SCII style, is a lot more interesting for players. What does Godde do once he's top of the Ladder? Sit around clubbing people for a bit, get bored of being #1 and go play something else.
+3 / -0
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