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DeinFreund 7 years ago (edited 7 years ago) The amount of pre-game RPS is just too high.. [Spoiler] [20:09] Fealthas: 0 counters to recluse spam present in shield bot factory [20:09] DeinFreund: he had lost the second i scouted bandit [20:09] Llamadeus: RIP [20:09] Llamadeus: :< [20:09] Llamadeus: i forgot [20:10] Llamadeus: to not play shieldbot [20:10] Fealthas: yes [20:10] Fealthas: thats #1 tip for winning games Just a small selection: Amph > Cloak Shield > Amph Jumps/Spiders > Shield Hover > Everything Hardcounters between units of different factories make the game more interesting. But players need to have a chance to build a unit that counters those units, which sometimes requires a fac switch. Spending that much metal to acquire a counter easily costs you the game when you're already in a disadvantageous position, which is why I would like to see cheaper factories. This should only improve unit variety and reduces pre-game RPS. +2 / -0
Fealthas 7 years ago (edited 7 years ago) [Spoiler] Taking these super small rush distance maps out of the pool is also a solution. Inb4 the "but I like this map" squad shows up - Just because you like a map doesn't mean its good for competitive play. I might like trololo but that doesn't make it a good map. Zerok just does not play well on some maps. +2 / -1
Anarchid 7 years ago (edited 7 years ago) Badlands never struck me as a particularly short rush distance map. I guess part of this is the terrain making it tough for most choice rush units, and part slowness of the factories which are good at traversing it. +2 / -0
DeinFreund 7 years ago The definition of not a "rush map" used here refers to the ability to switch factory early without incurring heavy drawbacks in the later game. This only applies on a minority of maps. +0 / -0
Anarchid 7 years ago This is a novel definition. The one i was operating under would be something like "prevalence of all-in starts greater than $threshold due to short distance to enemy". What are examples of maps that satisfy your criterion? +0 / -0
DeinFreund 7 years ago (edited 7 years ago) Imo none, but I think Fealthas has some. I'm overly greedy with metal. Taking the quaxample: Amph vs Cloak. You can either switch to bandits at the cost of 600 metal or get 10 glaives. There's no way bandits are going to take back all the map control you lost. The enemy will have double your eco in the meantime. +0 / -0
Aquanim 7 years ago (edited 7 years ago) Rockos are much better against Ducks than Glaives are. I don't know that that saves the matchup on every map but in my experience it's quite playable on at least some. In my opinion, playing Shield against Spider on this map is an auto-lose. For that matter, I would call not plopping Spider on this map an auto-lose. Shield has more reasonable ways to deal with Recluse spam on less hilly maps. I've never liked the Amph vs. Shield matchup. I remain unconvinced that the seeming OPness of Hover is accurate. The extremely high correlation of people thinking Hover is strong with Llamadeus' return to the game (and in particular the way that nobody appeared to realise this in the last year of no significant changes to the fac) suggests other possibilities to me. +0 / -0
DeinFreund 7 years ago I was regularly killed by NorthChileanG last year using dagger rushes. Nobody else used this strategy so it wasn't talked about much. If anybody wants to demonstrate me how he can defeat hovers I'm in MM every day.. +0 / -0
Aquanim 7 years ago (edited 7 years ago) Unfortunately, as I discovered yesterday, I am sufficiently rusty that defeating me in a 1v1 wouldn't prove very much :\| +0 / -0
SnuggleBass 7 years ago Aquanim I've long thought hover had potential, but learning hover requires better unit management, which is not a strength for me. Besides, LV is one of my best facrtories, so it would be replacing strength with only the possibility of strength. I think @Lamadeus certainly breathed life into the factory, but that doesn't mean the factory itself isn't strong. DeinFreund has also been wrecking house with it. Yes there's a causal connection there, but I'm yet to be convinced @Lamadeus is so good he's making the factory look OP when it's not. DeinFreund Yeah I'm with Aquanim on this one. Rockos are quite respectable against amph. You do sacrifice mobility, but rockos are at least decent against the entire factory and all porc. Once you get spectres it's the amph player who needs to fac switch. You start off with a weak raider game, but you do outscale them, so I don't consider this match-up that bad. This map... it's a spider map. If you plop shields that's your mistake. It's not RPS, because rock happens to also beat paper. If spiders wasn't more viable than bot facs on this map then I'd think think there was something wrong with spider. Also, out of all the units that are allowed to force opponents to fac switch, stuff like recluse is the least offensive, since once you do fac switch the unit drops in value immensely. A GS switch firing off blastwings will decimate recluse ball beyond reason, and the up-front cost is only a little more than two recluse (655m). +0 / -0
Aquanim 7 years ago (edited 7 years ago) I'm just finding all these cries of "Hover OP, nerf plz", when I'm yet to see people build the units in (at least) Lveh that are actually good against Dagger, pretty tiresome. Possibly Hover is overpowered - but I don't think that making that judgement based on games where people played poorly against Hover is justified. +0 / -0
SnuggleBass 7 years ago So you think slashers? I'll give it a go when next I'm on. +0 / -0
Aquanim 7 years ago For emphasis, I don't claim that slashers are an autowin in the matchup. You might lose anyway, the slashers and your radar coverage need to be positioned with care, and you'll need some dart/scorcher against scalpels and halberds. +0 / -0
SnuggleBass 7 years ago Yeah we don't need an auto-win. Just something that's viable. +0 / -0
Aquanim 7 years ago I think it's also important to be a bit more clear about the issues. I would say that one of the biggest problems with playing against Daggers is not that you can't beat the Daggers as such, but that it's very difficult to raid against the Hover player. Similarly, many of the potential counters to Scalpel are invalidated by Penetrator. +0 / -0
GoogleFrog 7 years ago I'm not convinced about the OP on the basis of this game. Llamadeus made a large number of Bandits for no reason. Bandits are primarily good for fighting enemy raiders - this is not something that is going to happen in Shield vs Spider. The Bandits mostly ended up dying to Venom/Redback. A few raiding Thuglaw balls would have fared a lot better. The Recluse army at the end significantly out-costed the army it was fighting. +0 / -0
DeinFreund 7 years ago (edited 7 years ago) You're completely right that drawing conclusions from nothing but the games between two players is risky. So if you want to have another option you'll have to find somebody else to play the game, or play it yourself. I myself haven't seen anything other than Recluses completely decimating shields. +0 / -0

Title:	MatchMaker 242
Host:	Nobody
Game version:	Zero-K v1.5.3.11
Engine version:	103.0.1-712-g1ccec6e
Battle ID:	450984
Started:	7 years ago
Duration:	10 minutes
Players:	2
Bots:	False
Mission:	False
Rating:	Competitive