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Factory Match-ups

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AUrankSnuggleBass
5 months ago
This discussion seems to be taking place in a disorganised fashion, I thought it might be good to centralise it.

Which factories counter which, and why? Is there anything that the bullied factory can be doing to stay viable? Is this match-up conditional on map, and if so, is that against designer intention.

For example:

Hover > Cloak on maps on which hover can move unrestricted.

Hover wins the raider game since daggers burst down glaives before receiving return fire. Transitions for cloaky are limited in that the hover midgame (mainly scalpel, but also halberd) tends to crap on cloaky midgame (warrior, rocko). So you start off behind and have limited options for reversing the gamestate.

But what could be done better? Well, ticks are rarely used, but I think they offer a real chance of allowing cloaky to win the raider game. Killing even one dagger in your territory with a tick makes cost (80 - 120=-40, +40 to 80 reclaim). Daggers path predictably, have low hp totals (and thus require little cleanup), and ball up constantly.

But even then, how viable should cloaky be on flat maps vs hover? IMO they should not be favoured, but should have some chance of winning assuming equal player skill.

Compare to:

Hover > LV

It's much the same formula of early and mid-game domination, except this time:
- scalpels are twice as effective vs. scorchers compared to against glaives.
- LV don't have the equivalent of tick, though AUrankAquanim suggests a combination of slasher (to beat up daggers and scalpels) backed by scorchers (to protect against halberd sniping).
- LV should not be unfavoured on flat maps, since hover has exactly the same domain specificity plus they get to move at top speed over water.
- it'd probably be okay if hover had an advantage over LV if LV had a better match-up against the rest of the field, but this is far from the case.

I've probably BAWWed a little too hard over balance of recent, without exhaustively testing out the options available to me. Often shifts in the meta come as a result of representation, not balance fixes (for example, hover's domination took a long time for people to bandwagon), so before demanding changes be made we should try our hardest to progress the match-up.
+1 / -0

AUrankhedgehogs
5 months ago
(edited 5 months ago)

LV>Plane.

AA is amazingly cheap and powerful.

quote:
Hover > Cloak on maps on which hover can move unrestricted

I now understand the power of Dagger in 1v1

HT>LV.
Unless early game, Reaper+Banisher annihalates entire LV formations, and nothing from the LV besides Wolverine/Domi can properly kill these.

The HT fac is a factory for the master resourcemacro, I've used it and 1 screw up with eco can make you lose. But the workers have lasers on them, so their somwhat protected.


Lv<Hover.

Daggers cannot be caught by Levelers and scorchers cannot catch. OP.

It takes skill to catch those guys with Levelers, and then all the Hover needs to do is spam Scalpels

+0 / -5


USrankFealthas
5 months ago
Since I play mostly cloaky I'll talk about my feelings about the factory's matchups.

Cloaky vs shields(shields early, cloaky late)
Cloaky loses raiding phase 100% of the time. Bandits are just so much better in raider combat that unless you make a big mistake and position horribly you will beat glaives easily. I work around this by just going warriors quickly. Each warrior can hold off like 10 bandits easily. Warrior expanding is quite good. They make for good raiding/pressure exerting units too.
Once raiding stops, is where things get ugly. Any combination of rocko/warrior/zeus beats shieldballs cost for cost. You can add snipers to further add insult to injury (especially if they have felons). Snipers with mixed with a ball of units are extremely difficult to kill(if not impossible). Rouges are complete garbage and you can enjoy having all your expansions being overrun if you build them. Early thuglaw pushes can be fended off quite easily with warriors and a bit of retreat micro. Thuglaw balls don't really do much dps at all. Thugs are only really a threat to defenders.

Cloaky vs spider(cloaky early, sniper wars late)
The raiding phase here is quite interesting, because if you send one glaive with your cons you are immune to raids. Venoms make it very hard to raid the spider player assuming they have good radar coverage. Glaives aren't really something that you want to be your core unit in this matchup, a quick switch to rockos is ideal. They let you put on alot of pressure and hardcounter everything that isn't recluse or crabber(no, fleas are not a counter, as it only takes 1 glaive to stop all that). I think fleas are massively overrated. Unless you place them early they don't really work as a "maphack" because random defences will kill them before they get to a good lookout spot later in the game. Their effectiveness is inversely proportional to how careful your opponent is. Vs good players they don't ever do much.
Once early rocko things get old, cloaky totally screwed. Mass recluse counters everything in cloaky. Add crabbes for extra pain. The one unit that can somewhat turn things is the sniper. The whole game as cloaky revolves around sniper. Despite people saying "flea counters sniper", they really don't at all. Again it only takes like 2 glaives to end all that. I think people who assume cloak is enough to protect sniper are nubs. Treating them like they are uncloaked is much more effective. People are really bad at using snipers and protecting them. Main way snipers are countered in most games I see is that the cloak player runs them into raiders or use them as melee units. Scythes can be a bit problematic for spider players because they have no raider to kill them with, but if a venom is near they get countered easily.
Cloaky's early game advantages(easy expansion and effective rocko pressure) is often enough to put them far enough ahead to secure a win. Defender spamming is effective too vs spiders. Defender number is positively correlated with winrate in this matchup. Defender pushes can swing things in your favor.
Overall, I don't really like this matchup as I feel that the early/late stages of it are too favored towards one side or another and sniper micro battles aren't fun for either side. As spider player you can sometimes try to kill snipers by blind firing crabbe or recluse swarms, which sometimes works if snipers walk into range for some reason.

Cloaky vs amphib(heavily cloaky favored)
If cloaky survives early duck spam and builds up enough rockos/snipers to kill everything its a pretty easy win. Completely ignoring glaives and spamming warriors and cons(making llts everywhere) is the optimal way to play imo. You can walk over to your enemy and cause some mayham with warriors if you want as well. Raiding is not super necessary as long as you are putting on pressure to make sure amphib player cannot W the whole map with cons.

Cloak vs hover(hover win)
Ouch. Glaives are useless mostly, but ok vs undefended scalpels(A few daggers for protection makes them 100% useless). I suppose they are ok vs halberds too. Building too many is a mistake. Warriors and zeus get too countered by scalpels to be worth building as your army core, although you need a warrior or two vs daggers. I think a cloaky players best bet is early a few warriors to expand with, and then a rocko heavy ball with sniper support(warrior or two for daggers). Ticks are good, but after one or two good hits people learn to spread out a bit more and they become much less effective. Most of their power is defensive too, you will never win an attack with ticks. Since hovers are faster than most cloaky units this matchup is unwinnable. They can stall for a bit with rocko, but a tech switch is the path to victory.

I think cloaky is the best MM factory right now, as on most maps you can either win, or stall long enough to techswitch. Flat and non-choke-pointy maps vs hover is insta loss though.
Even though these matchups are a bit heavily favored towards one way or another, I still think that the better player can win most of the time with smart techswitching and unit usage, with the exception of really small and stupid maps in which a 600 metal factory investment will probably kill you.


+4 / -0

AUrankhedgehogs
5 months ago
(edited 5 months ago)

Heavy Tank vs Cloak.

There is apparently nothing short of sniper which can properly handle a Reaper ball.
Instead cloak often goes and attacks my expansions, since the cons cannot, contrary to most nubs beliefs, go off alone, and I have never had more than 1 Banisher at the first 5minutes.
This makes raiding the only way to seriously beat Heavy tanks, and mapcontrol as HT will expand slower, con may build fast, but needs to make a few LLT's, slowing it down. Once the raiding phase is over, or when you get a few banishers, any attack bar Zeus is pure metal donation.
Once a few reapers have been made, cloak must switch or die, as nothing short of a 10:1 ratio can take one down, which is made worse by adding Banishers. Reapers will plow through whatever your opponent has, especially if there are more than 2. Banishers will halt all raider attacks, and all scythes, by now Cloak should have lost if not facswapped, or at the least cloak is now worthless.
All it takes is aggression to win against cloak once your ready, maybe 3reapers2banishers 1 welder, then you can walk at whatever the cloak has setup and prepare to win.
Once a Goliath is made, it is GG unless cloak makes Ultimatums/Dante, and even Dante cannot be guranteed kill, as goliath+2banishers really mess it up.

Light Vech vs HT.
This is by far the most amazing matchup I ever had.
First, raiding is not truly useful-HT will either have a lot of defenses, or a banisher protecting their units. However, they may send Panthers and Kodachi's out to kill you. Best way is to just build large amounts of Levellers and Wolverines, the Wolvs kill all the defenses. Reaper can be dealt with Scorcher, but Banisher will stop it, so 1Domi can capture the Banisher, turn it against the HT, and then scorchers can rush it. Make a higher concentration of Levelers than you normally would-Most battles I fight end up being pure Panther spam. Against a Goliath, the only way is to either Dominatrix along with other units, or flood with 6Scorchers and a few darts. Scorchers in numbers really messup Goliaths, and a few Infiltrators cannot be bad either.

To fight HT mobile armiee use Leveler, the higher damage and guranteed hit (plus protection to Panthers) makes it useful against Reapers, but keep away from Banishers.
Making an Athena can be the way to go, use an infiltrator and stun weakened targets, to stop them healing and returning to the fight.
Use repairs alot, do not make caretakers, unless you have an army next to them, as a single reaper can punch through any porc bar 2Stingers. You must win attrition, which is made easier by smaller metal, so Masons can repair pretty fast.
Always kill the damaged ones first in combat. This will not only stop them repairing, but weakens enemy firepower on your side. Always keep moving, you can dodge their shots at 300Elmo.
Capture Banishers first if you have Domi.

Rmember never to counter HT with brute force. That will never work, HT is the king of brute force, with devestating Reapers and Goliaths which can halt Dantes in their tracks.

Cloak vs LV in 1'v1 (was it me vs exploit?)
Rocko puts some poweful pressure on LV, especially if supported by Warriors, but a few Wolverines can end their lives pretty quickly. Leveler just destroys Glaives, which makes it uneconomical to send Glaives to raid.
Warrior rushes can be beaten off by a few Levelers,run them back and strafe the Warriors, and also works vs Zeus, but 3Scorchers are muchh better.
Ravagers generally win vs Zeus and whatever they decide to throw at you, unless it is Rocko's, but due to the Cloak's smaller size, Levelers are much better since they can land guranteed hits. Snipers are kind of pointless vs LV, since LV swarms everything but can pull of cost if it snipes Domis/Impalers.


+0 / -2

DErankBrackman
5 months ago
Cloaky < Tanks
On narrow maps, cloakies can do Tick+Glaives. Otherwise there's nothing they can really do vs tanks. If you are cloaky vs tanks, the best thing is Tick+Glaives and then fast hover switch and Scalpel spam.

Tanks < Hover
Scalpel spam.
+1 / -0

AUrankhedgehogs
5 months ago
(edited 5 months ago)

What

I got swarmed by 10Ticks and it only stunned 1 Banisher. That isn't much of a counter but rather a stall technique, so I don't think it is a good technique at all. It could work when their retreating however, but a single Banisher strike can kill at least 10Ticks.

Scalpels are pathetic against Reapers, and if there's too much, a few Pillagers will clear things up. Pene is the only good answer to HT, since scalpels run the risk of getting hit by Pillagers, while Pene can shoot far away and kill a Reaper. Remember Reapers have 6800 whilst a Goliath has 12000, and 450 range for golly, allowing it to catch some Scalpels.

HT has the hardest problem at earlygame, since Banishers,Kodachis and Panthers are very vunerable to Scalpel missiles
+0 / -3

PLrankOrfelius
5 months ago
(edited 5 months ago)

spam > coherent arguments
+3 / -1

AUrankhedgehogs
5 months ago
(edited 5 months ago)

Read>Shitpost.
Actually read what I write, I do put effort in them you know. If you wish for a concise version on bulletpoints, then tell me instead of posting like that
I only ask you tell me if I'm doing something wrong instead of randomly posting over the place.
This really gets on my nerves when someone does that

Cooherent<Coherent.

I applaud you for finding your mistake
+0 / -2

PLrankOrfelius
5 months ago
(edited 5 months ago)

quote:
Actually read what I write

No, thanks. Because what you write is mostly nonsensical and completely unfounded. And at that you also constantly spam the forum with new posts creating a buzz of information but nothing really coherent.

quote:
I only ask you tell me if I'm doing something wrong instead of randomly posting over the place.


One way you could make people stop ignoring you (because many are ignoring you at this point if you haven't realized), would be discussing things in a live chat with other people instead of making a huge number of forum posts even if they indeed have some legitemate content within them.

Besides you have been told about spamming the forums before by ILrankAdminhokomoko if memory serves right. But its actually almost impossible to find on the forums because you still spam the forum.

Btw this is a response to your earlier question of "why are people downvoting me".
Well you have the answer now and I'm going to go into a state of trying to mentaly fliter out your posts just as I personally know a lot of other people do.
+1 / -1


AUrankSnuggleBass
5 months ago
Reapers are not impervious to scalps. Sure it takes a lot of shots, but you're not allowed to lose reapers if you want to win, and it's very difficult to not lose units vs. that much burst on that fast a unit. As numbers go up, attrition goes up which denies HT its main advantage.
+0 / -0



EErankAdminAnarchid
5 months ago
(edited 5 months ago)

quote:
On narrow maps, cloakies can do Tick+Glaives. Otherwise there's nothing they can really do vs tanks.

I don't think this is quite so. My perception of this matchup is that while it is quite asymmetric, there's a lot for both sides to do.

- Kodachi wrecks Glaives. Panther too, to an extent. Cloakies cannot really raid as much they do in the "conventional" matchups. This is similar to their Hover and Amph matchup.

- Tanks lack a scout unit. While their raiders can respond to Glaives, they cannot screen for Scythes and rarely can respond in time to catch a Scythe before it slips away. This makes even a threat of Scythe use necessitate a lot of static defense on their parts. And by "a lot" i mean that one Lotus per mex cluster does nothing vs Scythe, you need at least two.

- This is slightly compensated by Welders being awesome and very hard to kill. A single Scythe may not be sufficient.

- Cloaky has no good antiheavy option. This makes Reaper stronger and stronger as the game progresses because Cloaky doesn't have reliable means to kill it before it goes back to base, having done its damage. Spectres barely scratch the Reaper.

- Spectres, however, do scratch the lesser tanks so hard that they are cut in half. Sometimes this creates situations when Reapers are left uncovered and can be Glaived, but in practice see the part about Kodachi wrecking Glaives. A Kodachi sitting behind the Reaper wall and waiting for the Glaives to come completely negates the "shoot banisher, then raid reapers" scenario if the tank player is competent.

- A single Tick makes cost against a single Kodachi. Kodachis are arrogant and like to singlehandedly attack mexes, which makes for some nice trap opportunities.

- Banishers seem terrifying against Warriors, Glaives and Zeus, but actually are vulnerable to Rocko like a proper riot should be. And Spectre scratches them off in almost one shot.

By the time Tank really can leverage its strength - the Cloaky player should be able to either build up a fair advantage as long as they don't spend all their military budget on feeding Kodachis with Glaives; or at least to facswitch into something that can deal with Reaper. Like Scalpel.

---

Or you could just start Hover and spam Scalpel from the get-go. Because Scalpel counters Kodachi, Panther, Banisher and Reaper all by itself, as well as coming from a factory that squarely roflstomps anything else you would expect to encounter on a map which allows Tanks.
+0 / -0

GBrankLlamadeus
5 months ago
(edited 5 months ago)

quote:
Early thuglaw pushes can be fended off quite easily with warriors and a bit of retreat micro. Thuglaw balls don't really do much dps at all.

Though I get that killing things isn't actually what it's specialized for... personally I wouldn't mind if thug gained some extra range or gun usability at the expense of some stats elsewhere.
+0 / -0

AUrankhedgehogs
5 months ago
(edited 5 months ago)

Ah well, I leave this discussion to the "pros" then
+2 / -1