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Raider/Assault Power vs Light Porc

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USrankRyMarq
19 days ago
So I have been doing some testing.

Some things people might be interested in.

General Ability vs Porc:
Raiders and Assaults are not very different vs light porc. The best of them generally require about 2x value in the attacking units to make the strike efficient, while even the worst setup needs 3x value to begin appreciably damaging the porc (Blitz, as it turns out).

For Raiders the Ranking is:
Glaive
Bandit
Duck
Dagger
Scorcher
Pyro
Blitz
Kodachi
Flea (never actually makes cost vs a LLT, even if you have way too many of them, it just kills too many first)
Puppy (like Flea, but worse at this).

This is for how easy it is to make cost against LLT really. It ranges from just under 2x for Glaives to 6x for Kodachi and Blitz, so its quite a range.





If I were to Rank all Raiders and Assaults on usefulness for raiding and killing light porc, it is as follows.

Scorcher
Jack
Halberd
Glaive
Minotaur
Ravager
Knight
Bandit
Thug (A bit hard to place because of the support effects of its shield).

With all others being approximately the same, and a distinct step lower than the rest. They all have faults that stop them from being effective raiders. Duck, for example, drops out massively because of its lack of sustained ability to damage infrastructure.

This is of course just for raiding potential, it doesn't even count fighting a raider defense force, nor the effects of terrain.

The top 3 of this list, all have some distinct weaknesses (especially Jack if I am to be believed).


Now, one might as 'why have I posted this' and that is fair. I suppose I mostly wanted to record the results of my initial testing (on raiders and assaults vs llts) and some extrapolation I made for general consumption. I found the implications to be interesting, for example how Scorcher isn't actually that good vs LLTs, but is big enough and has enough DPS that it can probably wreck infrastructure meaningfully anyway.
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SErankGodde
19 days ago
How did you test it?
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USrankRyMarq
19 days ago
Initial series of tests was just masses of raiders/assaults against LLTs.


If a unit had more than 50% damage, I considered it fractionally dead, until the units were making cost (intended so the results scaled up passably). I had another number, which was at which point the units actually were killing any LLTs, but I viewed this as a weaker metric. It takes 9 Fleas, for example, to kill a LLT. Attrition barely improved if at all at 30 of them though.

The initial rating for raiders are therefore based upon what % of the metal spent on LLTs needs to be spent on the raider force, for them to kill more LLTs than losing raiders.

My more final metrics were based on some estimates from ability to travel to a location, and deal damage in a certain amount of time. Its a more subjective measure though.
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SErankGodde
19 days ago
(edited 19 days ago)

Btw, Lotuses tend to switch target to the most damaged unit and then they are idle for a frame or 2 when the target is dead. I would estimate something like 10-25% of their DPS is wasted this way when there are lots of Lotuses against large groups of cheap raiders.
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USrankRyMarq
19 days ago
This was determined fairly empirically, I do not expect any major deviation. Perhaps bandits might move up a bit at most.
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USrankShadowWolfTJC
19 days ago
What about using skirmishers, like the Ronin, Rogue, Fencer, Scalpel, Recluse, and Moderator against Lotuses? Many of them outrange them, and some are tough enough to be able to take hits from a Picket.
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USrankRyMarq
19 days ago
Using skirmishers is what is known as 'correct' against light porc.

Recluse, Rogue, Fencer, Grizzley are all great against it.
Rocko, Boey are both Good against it.
Scalpel and Mod are both alright against it.

Because of the relative speed and frailty of skirmishers, and how hard they beat many defenses, I think they are a bit less interesting than is useful to analyze.
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AUrankAdminGoogleFrog
18 days ago
I am dubious of the data. There are many integers and repair effects to take into account.

quote:
Flea (never actually makes cost vs a LLT, even if you have way too many of them, it just kills too many first)
I can run 15 Fleas at an LLT and lose only four.

Pyro, Scorcher and Blitz can each beat a lone LLT. This is fairly important. Eight Daggers can burst an LLT very quickly. Kodachi can often leave LLT to burn and regen nearby.
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EErankAdminAnarchid
18 days ago
Last time i tested a lone Scorcher vs Lotus, both died. Which means, Lotus wins.
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USrankRyMarq
18 days ago
I gave it a half dozen attempts to make cost with Fleas against a LLT and never achieved it without terrain preventing LOS for a portion of it.

Pyro has the faintest whisp of health after beating one LLT. This is important, but literally even a flea would interupt that process and cause it to die, as would some unfortunately placed death explosions.

Scorcher likewise is very even, and can very realistically expect to die from the death explosion.
Blitz is also somewhat even, but also costs a ton more.


This is about how much relative metal you need invested to break through. Its not about all possible advantages.
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AUrankSnuggleBass
16 days ago
I have concerns about the validity of this measure.

When attacking porc, you always outnumber porc. You have the power of initiation because you have movement and porc doesn't. So the situation where you're comparing equal metal's worth should never ever happen in a real game.

I would think a more useful measure is how much metal you need worth of raiders to not take losses. For example, glaives are super good vs. single LLTs because they can take zero losses and zero hp damage. Bandits are pretty good too, because their high range allows them to focus the LLT immediately with a good arc.

OR

in the case of larger weight units, how much porc they can kill without taking losses. A reaper may not be super efficient in terms of damage dealt and received, but it can kill heavier porc areas without losses meaning it's often a superior option.
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USrankRyMarq
16 days ago
I included unit weight in my less certain measurements. You will note Jack did quite well there, that is in very large part due to its weight.

No assault or raider was able to make cost with appreciably less than 2x metal value in the assaulting force.
None of them were even able to make significant progress without 1.3x the cost of the target, even Jack and Halberd.

The main measure is how much metal you need to have losses that are minimized. Fleas never do this, at least in my testing, glaives are among the best units at it.
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ZArankAstran
16 days ago
Great thread. Very useful info
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EErankAdminAnarchid
16 days ago
(edited 16 days ago)

quote:
When attacking porc, you always outnumber porc. You have the power of initiation because you have movement and porc doesn't. So the situation where you're comparing equal metal's worth should never ever happen in a real game.

This sounds logical and feels intuitive. But empirically, it is wrong. The porc can move. Or, rather, in certain situations, it can pop up when needed and where needed; And it can creep from there, forcing its own engagement. If this condition is achieved, then its innate cost-efficiency means that the only solutions remain either more porc of your own, or some direly asymmetric approaches.

I know the mantra about go around and pwn their eco; i live by it. Or the "make Impaler" thing i tried to drill into myself. These only work when the Stinger is not about to step on your throat, though.

I still have nightmares.
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USrankFealthas
15 days ago
I'm surprised at how close that list is to my personal list of "how-good-it-is-against-porc".
IMO scorchers are a bit higher on that list, around ducks, otherwise it is identical.

Glaives just seem to have everything in their favor.
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PTrankraaar
15 days ago
what kinds of light porc are we talking about.

Does it include stardusts and faradays?
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USrankRyMarq
15 days ago
I had tested only with LLT and some defender.

Defender tests yielded basically the same results, except it was easier to raid by all Assaults and Raiders (only tested with a quarter though), at least by the basic thresholds I was using.
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