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Everything revolves around spamming the same cheap and fast units every game = boring

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FIrankFabrizio
3 months ago
(edited 3 months ago)

This post has been downvoted below -5 and collapsed, click here to expand
Spam glaives/other cheap trash from start to finish + no reason to ever build most of the non-cloakbot factories/units/buildings = dead game

New players will quit fast after they notice that you are forced to do the same shit every single game if you want to win

Devs probably think that if they are having fun playing then theres nothing wrong with the game

just remove non-cloakbot units/buildings and rename game to Cloakbot-K since thats what it is

+2 / -15

MYrankUmiDah
3 months ago
You sure you know how the game works?
+12 / -0



AUrankAdminGoogleFrog
3 months ago
(edited 3 months ago)

The first few minutes of most matches are likely to revolve around poking and raiding with fast, cheap, units. In matches of somewhat even skill this phase often gives way to heavier units, still with some raiders, as both sides put up defenses to protect their expansions and the battle lines draw closer. In matches with large skill disparity, the game can seem to end at the raider phase, however, I'm not sure if this is fixable or if fixing it is even a good idea.

Perhaps you could post some links to replays where you've seen this, and we can have a look?

Edit: Perhaps start with this comment here http://zero-k.info/Battles/Detail/507966 .
+7 / -0



GBrank[GBC]1v0ry_k1ng
3 months ago
Fabrizio there are better ways to open discussion, why so hostile?
+0 / -0

ZArankAstran
3 months ago
With respect, Fabrizio, you are wrong.

While Cloaks and Glaives are quite strong, they are by no means invincible.

Units like Archer eat glaives for breakfast, and Bandit is superior under micro. Darts are faster and raid earlier. Kodachi under skilful micro can annihilate entire groups of glaives, and with the spider fac Venom and Redback are effective counters to Glaive.

If you are getting your base overrun all the time then try building Stardust instead of Lotus. Stardust chews up raiders so badly it's like a free buffet when your constructors sweep up the mess. Speaking of constructors, Welder can take on several Glaives on its own and still expand your area without need of protection from them.

I think that your fundamental problem is not cheap, fast units.

I think that you are not raiding yourself and that you are not expanding fast enough.

When your are being raided the whole time it's hard to get going because you are always reacting. Try raiding yourself right away, and see how that works. Try building more radar and a couple of riot units. That way you can see the skirmishers incoming and intercept them with the riots.

When your economy is much inferior to the opponents, then yes, it's worth spamming something like Glaive just to keep you busy while he lines up something worse. Your focus should be on working out why your opponents start so much faster than you and fixing that hole in your game.

Hope this helps.

:)
+5 / -0


GBrank[Fx]Drone
3 months ago
wow sum new player got the unit balance all figured out he must be genius

i wish i was that smart
+3 / -1

LUrankAnir
3 months ago
honestly i thin that you lack the experience to maintain that something is overpowered.
(55 games in total is nothing, most people that play on a high lvl have around 2500 games at least)



I would recommend that you watch some good 1v1 or 2v2 games, i'm confident that by watching those, you will agree that glaives are strong, but every factory can beat them.

(The same counts for every other unit/factory/strategy)


To find those replays, click here: https://zero-k.info/Battles
and search for players like:

@sigero
SErankGodde
GBrankPRO_rANDY
NOrankKingstad
PTrankraaar
EErankAdminAnarchid
and many more, basically the first 24 names in the Competitive ladder (click here: https://zero-k.info/Ladders), are good examples for higher skilled games.
+1 / -1



SErankGodde
3 months ago
(edited 3 months ago)

quote:
...Bandit is superior under micro.
Correction:
Bandit is superior without micro. With simple Fight/Attack Move, Bandits skirmish Glaives to death. It is Glaives that need to be microed and try to flank from several directions to make up for the range advantage that Bandits have.

If newbs starts spamming Glaives at you, try going Shieldbots more often and watch them squirm as your wall of Bandits razes his whole expansion as they advance with little left than the wrecks of foolish Glaives that were trying to run down the Bandits head on.
+6 / -0


ROrankSigero
3 months ago
i agree that cloackbots are strong and maybe the most Op factory in 1v1 but having clockbot factory dont guarantee the win you must also know how to play.If you fail at early game real hard and get contained then its over ,you must expand and keep eco diffrence to a minimum.Allways strive for map controll and eco advantage.
+2 / -0

FIrankFabrizio
3 months ago
This post has been downvoted below -5 and collapsed, click here to expand
quote:
I would recommend that you watch some good 1v1 or 2v2 games, i'm confident that by watching those, you will agree that glaives are strong, but every factory can beat them.


yes i've skipped thru about 20 games from top players and in vast majority of those games at least 1 player started with cloakbots and most games ended in 5-15min where 99% of units were glaives/other cheap raiders

everyone saying "yes cloakbots are strong BUT blah blah play perfectly with underpowered dogshit factory and u can win too!!!!" should stop posting and go back to their brainless glaivespam games

cloakbots have strong everything and game will lose all new steam players if they aren't nerfed, new players never see any other unit because they lose in 2min to glaivespam every game, then they start spamming glaives themselves and notice how fucking boring the game is and quit

+0 / -6



SErankGodde
3 months ago
Nah, there are lots of different factory rushes that they will lose to aswell. :P

Also, just because there is a strong rush tactic in a game, doesn't mean the game will fail.
Remember Zergling rush in Starcraft? :D
+1 / -0

ZArankAstran
3 months ago
Fabrizio, sounds like you have the metagame worked out. Maybe you should take on some laddered players with cloaks and teach them a lesson. Every now and again a prodigy shows up that's far ahead of everybody else and makes everybody look foolish. Godde and Econoob did that, and goodness knows Wesley was laddered after only a few months of play.

Maybe you are that prodigy.

I bet the laddered players would even let you choose their starting fac as jumpjets if you asked nicely ;)
+5 / -0



GBrank[GBC]1v0ry_k1ng
3 months ago
quote:
cloakbots have strong everything and game will lose all new steam players if they aren't nerfed, new players never see any other unit because they lose in 2min to glaivespam every game, then they start spamming glaives themselves and notice how fucking boring the game is and quit


Cloakbots don't have a strong everything, what they have are units that are effective in low densities - in the early game, in other words.

Every factory has a way of defeating Glaives that doesn't require too much effort, except maybe Spider:

Shields: Bandit (basic raider) eats them for cost.
Spider: Venom (fast EMP spider)
Jumper: Puppy AND Pyro (cheap suicide unit & heavy raider - both beat Glaives for cost)
Amph: Duck (basic raider) and Archer (fast riot) both fucking mince Glaives
Lveh: Scorcher trades ok; Riot tank utterly obliterates Glaives.
Heavy tank: Kodachi

If you can provide replays where you fail using these units, please provide link and we'll take a look.

+1 / -0



SErankGodde
3 months ago
(edited 3 months ago)

Some people even argue that Zergling rushes/cheap spam is necessary to get lots of players.

Edit: This is the wrong video lol.


+4 / -0

ZArankAstran
3 months ago
Great video Godde :thumbsup: I like MTG and see the parallels with ZK.
+0 / -0



SErankGodde
3 months ago
(edited 3 months ago)

Some people even argue that Zergling rushes/cheap spam is necessary to get lots of players.

This is the right video. :-P



Edit: I kinda disagree with both of these videos. But that is another story for another time.
+3 / -0


ROrankSigero
3 months ago
(edited 3 months ago)

this makes sense lets give claokies even more tricks,so they so far have autoregen and best dps and best riot and best raider and best cost-to effect ratio...
maybe give them invisibility too or some sort of uncounterable unit that attacks from invisibility...hmmm wait they have all of that.
One thing is for certain cloakies can deal with every factory no problem.all the other factories not so much.Theyr suppossed to be jack of all trades master of none,but from my perspective versatility is the true OP thing in this game.Thres virtually no reason to fac switch from cloakies cause u can basicly counter allmost everything.
+1 / -0

CZrankpsaniac
3 months ago
I feel like players are dismissing FIrankFabrizio 's arguments only because of his undiplomatic expressions. But he's right on many of his points. Cloaky is overpowered. In the last 1v1 tournament, more then 50% (!) of plopped facs on non-sea maps were cloakys.

Cloaky has the best raider.
Low cost, high DPS, best DPS/cost, auto-regen. Stupid speed, more then any other raider. Can often trade with light defense for cost. The only reson why its somewhat OP instead of really OP is because there are way too many units desigened to just counter Glaives. (Ducks, Daggers, Puppies, Pyros, Rippers are only really good against Glaives)

Cloaky has the best riot.
Auto-regen, good performace per cost, good HP per cost. Only riot which is cheap and has enough power to be used as a light assault. Covers skirmishers way too well.

Cloaky has the second best skirmisher. (and only because some madman buffed Rouges)
It has HALF the DPS of a Glaive. The cheapest skirmisher has half the DPS of the highest DPS raider. And it's so spammable. So expensive to hard-counter. It has really high HP/cost too, probably so it doesn't get countered by raiders (looks like more HP/cost then non-assaults...). And its fast too. Compare to a non-OP skirmisher like Moderator or Buoy or Scalpel.

Cloaky has a much higher amount of good strategic options compared to other factories.
It has Scythe, Sniper and Tick. All really good and underused units. Other factories simply don't have this luxury of having strategies to choose from.

Did I mention how OP Sniper is? Hint: They are a mid and lategame anti-everything. With moderate support, it stays cloaked and it cannot be killed by long range stuff. And its is insta-hit artillery.

Only bad unit Cloaky really has is the Gremlin. So Gunship kinda works. But the in the long-term, it looks like devs have decided instead of nerfing Cloaky to buff almost every other factory instead. And Gunships haven't been buffed anyway.

Current 1v1 meta:
Cloaky=OP.
Shields+Tanks=buffed by devs, very viable. I'd say they are OP compared to the rest though.
Rovers+Gunships=Not buffed, kinda weak, still kinda viable.
Jumpjets=not buffed, has serious problems due to slow units and not enough strategic options. Also has no riot.
Hovers=nerfed, completely useless in high level 1v1s nowdays. Completely hard-coutered by Shieldbots.
Amphs=buffed, but the factory is really bad anyway due to every unit being slow and unable to kill skirmishers. Also bad HP/cost, no arty, no assault...
Spiders=somewhat buffed,viable but has problems countering cheap skirms early game.

I'd also say that Grizzly and Lance are OP, but they are redeeming features of their otherwise really bad factories.






+5 / -0



AUrankAdminGoogleFrog
3 months ago
It's not useless, but I would like to see stats or replays. History has shown that it is very easy to nerf cloakies into uselessness with the smallest changes.
+1 / -0


ROrankSigero
3 months ago
everyone plays cloakies what more stats you need?
+5 / -0
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