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Are most typical riot units insufficient to counter Blitz?

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USrankShadowWolfTJC
3 months ago
(edited 3 months ago)

Lately, I've been making edits to the wiki in order to add more strategic and tactical tips to their use, or to countering them. During that time, I took a look at the Blitz's stats, saw that they did alot of damage-per-shot (including emp damage) and had alot of health, compared them to Riot units such as the Reaper, Outlaw, Ripper, Mace, and Redback, and the results seem to indicate that if those aforementioned Riot units aren't defeated by Blitzes, then they would probably come out of the fight heavily weakened. Because of this, I then looked into possible ways that Blitzes could be countered for those specific factories, and so far, I have a few ideas on how it could feasibly be done:

- Cloakbots: [Spoiler]

- Shieldbots: [Spoiler]

- Rovers: [Spoiler]

- Hovers: [Spoiler]

- Spiders: [Spoiler]

As for Amphbots and Jumpbots, I believe that they could counter Blitzes fine enough through the usage of Archers, Scallops, Placeholders, and Moderators. Edit: Ogres should also work well for Tanks due to them packing a serious punch.

What are your thoughts?

Edit: Note that, if the raiders are spread out, and attack from multiple directions, then aoe riot units, like the Ripper and Ogre, become less effective (as I witnessed over the past few co-op games that I played online).
+1 / -0


AUrankSnuggleBass
3 months ago
Thoughts:

Due to weight and stun properties, blitz is better vs. riots than is typical for a raider. They are more resistant to splash, and if they outnumber riots sufficiently they can stun-lock and kill without losses.

Cloaky
[Spoiler]

Shield
[Spoiler]

Rovers:
[Spoiler]

Hovers:
[Spoiler]

Spiders - Not recommended as first fac against tanks unless you've got a lot of terrain to abuse.
[Spoiler]

Amph - not recommended vs. tanks
[Spoiler]

I think tanks are probably a bit OP atm, especially in team games. They are great at crushing newer players who don't know how to counter them (feeding the welder ball), and are pretty resilient to interference from stronger players until later in the game. Blitz is super powerful in the early game if you're somewhat competent, as it counters pretty much all raiders and is especially good at assaulting lightly porced areas.

One big counter to blitz is likho, which will demolish blitz balls whenever they leave controlled air space. Tanks AA is also pretty bad against planes in general, so lighter plane options can be effective, such as thunderbird and phoenix.
+0 / -0

PTrankraaar
3 months ago
I think ripper and redback are slightly underpowered at the moment, that's part of the reason why they work worse than they should.


+4 / -0


AUrankSnuggleBass
3 months ago
I agree they're both a little weak, but are ripper really under-performing vs. blitz? Compared to against other raiders sure, but they're still a counter right? ...I haven't played enough recently.
+0 / -0




EErankAdminAnarchid
3 months ago
IME Dart is the superior option vs pure Blitz because it allows Rover to retain raider initiative. Though unsure if that still matters given the state of Welder.
+1 / -0



AUrankAdminGoogleFrog
3 months ago
The trick to beating Blitz is to realize that they spent 300 metal on each Blitz. Generally, you should expect efficient trades when you have local superiority and a small force of Blitz is able to mess with this assessment.

Another thing to keep in mind is that Blitz have approximately zero DPS for their price. Assaults and defenses are effective against them.
+3 / -0

PRrankScrangos
3 months ago
What would you guys recommend for stopping blitzballs from raiding on big open maps like comet catcher? What would you spend the metal on an even economy? Keeping in mind my humanity when considering APM Requirements, and how easy it is to repeat queue blitzes and just shift waypoint a group at a time. One slip, economy gone, and game over. And dont say use another blitz ball please.
+0 / -0

USrankFealthas
3 months ago
I think ripper and redback are fine as they are, because spider hardly needs more riot power and rover has slashers which murder raiders anyways.
+0 / -0


GBrank[Fx]Drone
3 months ago
Scrangos I often see SErankGodde dominate big map like CCR with early air switch, like at 5 min mark. As for unit choice, you pretty much always have to do the spammiest, fastest unit available. Scorchers, blitz, or glaive (if u crazy). Early thunderbird and ravens will help. Dominatrix are typically pretty good vs blitz but it requires a lot of babysitting, aka good APM.
+0 / -0

USrankShadowWolfTJC
3 months ago
PRrankScrangos:

1st of all, raiders are best used to punish underdefended expansionism, so I'd work on developing the economy within my borders (such as linking mexes together for overdrive) before considering going out to claim new mexes. Still, you'll need your own raiders to punish the opponent from greedily expanding without building adequate defenses, though try to keep your raiders from engaging the enemy Blitzes unless you have a significant advantage.

2nd, In addition to countering Blitzes with Knights, Venoms, Ogres, Claymores, etc., I'd invest in an advanced radar behind your defensive lines, so that you could more easily see such an attack coming, and send your riots over to intercept the Blitzes. However, since the Blitzes, like other raiders, are so much faster than your riots, I wouldn't try to chase after them should they withdraw. (If you don't want to bother micromanaging your riots, consider building Desolators along your defensive line, whose aoe attacks should punish Blitz balls hard.)

3rd, since Blitzes, like other tanks, don't fare well with rough terrain, consider using terraform to create walls or ditches that are impassable for tanks. From my experience, terraforming 30-unit-deep ditches (which supposedly keep out anything that isn't a spider) is surprisingly cheap.
+0 / -0


SErankGodde
3 months ago
I would say that there is no low APM counter to Blitzes on a map like CCR.

Any easy counter to Blitzballs are too slow to keep up and the Blitzes can simply outmaneuver, if the counter have critical mass, or overrun them.

Ogres are arguably the best counter but they are kinda slow and lone Ogres are overrun easily. However, once you have 2-3 of them with some support of your own Blitzes, there is no costeeffective way that a Blitzball can deal with them and you can start rolling towards the enemy and the Ogrees will deal with light porc and Welders just fine.

I wouldn't recommend Rippers or Dominatrix. Especially Dominatrix can work on smaller maps where they aren't outmaneuvered as easily.
I would rather recommend Scorchers and Darts in combination with defense.
Blitzes have poor DPS and cannot deal easily deal with porc. However, Blitzballs will just stun and roll through light defense without a problem. However, having a force of Darts and Scorchers stalking the Blitzball means that the Blitzes can't engage the defenses without getting swarmed and they can't skirmish and kite against the Rover force without taking damage in the process.
Also, I'd recommend getting Aircraft for Thunderbird and/or Raven. Thunderbird is excellent to buy you time for your Rovers to get into position while a critical mass of Ravens can take out small groups of Blitzes or Kodachis. However note that a critical force of Blitzes are immune to Ravens unless they are distracted by other things or have been disarmed by a Thunderbird first.
If the Blitzes push through your defenses, Thunderbird is an excellent way to slow them and disarm them so that they can be slowed down and swarmed by Darts and Scorchers.

Also counterraiding is usually a better way to deal with Blitz raiding than trying to stop the Blitzes directly.
For every Dart and Scorcher near your enemies expansion, you force the enemy to divert expensive Kodachis and Blitzes for defense or make excessive amount of defenses. Blitzes and especially Kodachi cannot run down Scorchers easily while Darts can easily outrun them.
5 Scorchers can cause hell for the Tank player if he doesn't have Panthers or Kodachis to intercept, as the Scorchers are able to kill defenses and lone Welders quickly. The tank player cannot kill defenses quickly and he might not ever reach a deathball of Blitzes before Thunderbirds are up in the sky, preventing all breakthroughs.

At a high level of skill, me and rANDY considers Comet Catcher Redux to be a Rover map because of this.
+2 / -0

PRrankScrangos
3 months ago
(edited 3 months ago)



https://zero-k.info/Battles/Detail/521785
https://zero-k.info/Battles/Detail/521805

Doesnt even need to be comet catcher, blitzes are just retarded atm. Im not sure why theres an unit thats as fast as a glaive, tanky like an assault, and has perfect accuracy and a dmg per hit that can act as a riot ontop. Its hard en ough to try and out micro. And dont say ticks, they become irrelevant really fast cause it only stuns like 2-3 blitzes infront since the rest are too far back or too tanky to get stunned by it. Ive tried.

Stilleto isnt even useful against em cause again, THEY ARE ABOUT AS FAST AS GLAIVES.
+0 / -0


GBrank[Fx]Drone
3 months ago
perfectly flat maps like red comet are essentially vehicle maps so if youre trying to use bots, good luck with that lol, youd need snipers or something

rovers are viable vs blitz on red comet, hovers probably too but i dont know much about hovers
+1 / -0

PRrankScrangos
3 months ago
(edited 3 months ago)

I thought we had moved to a "all factories are viable" balance now?

But even not, its kinda bonkers to have units that have so much alpha and tankyness move that fast.
+0 / -0


GBrank[Fx]Drone
3 months ago
All factories are map dependent. Always have been.

Hilly maps are good for bots. Maps with steep cliffs or impassable terrain good are for spider and jump bot. Maps with water are good for amphib and hover. Maps that are flat are good for rover, tank and possible hover.

Youd obviously be crazy to make vehicle on a hilly map like Sierra V2 and its similar for making bots on flat map. Thats not to say it cant be viable. I'm sure something like shields or jump bot could potentially work on red comet but its perfectly flat so obviously if any map is good for rover/tank its a flat map.
+1 / -0


GBrank[Fx]Drone
3 months ago
I think blitz is just a good unit when it gets critical mass but there is a really big elo difference between u and deinfreund so you are already at a disadvantage before lab comes into play and then youre playing with handicap lab so its extra difficult. I do think its possible to win with cloaky but you need to play it perfectly to make it happen, like glaive raiding and solid macro to afford snipers.

There's a lot of units in ZK that seem insane and unstoppable when the enemy is allowed to get critical mass, like dominatrix for example but its often just about superior macro. Sometimes with units like this there is no "counter" if you fallen behind in macro. BTW didnt watch replays just guessing.
+0 / -0

PRrankScrangos
3 months ago
I was told that after i had stopped playing previously and the steam release now factories were all balanced to be viable, not aiming to be just a map based mirror match every match.

And those replays arent against the same player even >.> im aware that i wouldnt beat dein even if it was balanced, thats not what im trying to show
+0 / -0


GBrank[Fx]Drone
3 months ago
When you have some units that are all-terrain, amphibious or only flat terrain, I dont see how you can have PERFECT balance with a diverse map pool. Thats crazy talk.
+0 / -0

PTrankraaar
3 months ago
wiki says blitz deals it's 74 + 185(P) dps with 260 range. It's also insta-hit and bursty.

they have 102 speed, pyro has 90 but has better maneuverability and can jump. If you consider the weapons to be roughly equivalent in cost-effectiveness and the fact that blitz has about +70% hp, and costs about 35% more, it seems somewhat balanced in terms of raw cost-effectiveness.

Maybe what happens is most factories don't have the right tools to deal with them. Maybe the pyro is also slightly OP but its low HP keeps it easy to counter.

blitz is an annoying design because of the paralyze damage. Units with builtin crowd control are annoying because fights with them snowball harder than normal, and their speed and hp allows them to choose engagements and survive.

Other factories may want to skip trying to counter raid and push with a single squad of units that the blitzes can't face in direct combat (ogre+welder, thuglaw+rogue, area cloaker+reaver+knight), and leave stardusts to cover key parts of the existing territory (this will fail if the enemy decides to thunderbird the defenses and overrun them anyway, but that's another issue).

Sometimes the best counter to "fire" is just "water", with no "fire" at all.


+2 / -0

PRrankScrangos
3 months ago
(edited 3 months ago)

Is it possible to balance all facs with the current maps? I dont know. Im asking what the goal is. And im hoping the current map pool is just a temporary thing. Like ive said elsewhere, these maps that were inherited from spring, not made for zks balance and playstyle.

Is it possible to make maps where all the land factories are balanced to plop? I dont know as well.

I'd like to know what the goal is if im wrong, cause if its just gonna develop into a mirror match every match in competitive (yes thats exactly whats gonna happen as people get more serious), the game sorta loses parts of its appeal, never been a fan of mirrors. Specially if each fac has like 6 units... thats a 6 unit mirror... bleh...

I have tried the death push against blitz balls, they are fast enough to go around and wipe your eco and still come back to kill your army under whatever porc they have. They can cc to help their porc, and they can raid your skirms and do pretty well vs your riots.

Also, going by "brawliness" which is goddess term, +70% hp is worth a lot more than +30% metal. When units sit and duke it out they can dps for 70% longer since they are alive that much longer. Pyros are garbage in comparison, nearly equal dps (and part of it isnt stackable), less hp by a lot, less movespeed. (yes i understand they can jump, but jump doesnt scale in lategame and takes too much micro to be useful lategame). Two armies of equal total hps and dps, the one that has more hp per unit will win since the other one will start losing dps earlier (Classic vanilla starcraft marine vs hydra).
+1 / -0
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