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100m Defender needs rework?

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DErankWeltenwind
12 days ago
The best thing about defender is it's vision range, but glaives kill it regardless of how high the terraform below it is.
For a 100m defender, 65m glaives or 75m bandits die.

I understand that it was nerved in cost because peoples push with it, but could it not get 1 missile for long range, 1 for medium range and 1 for short range instead and use shortest possible range first?

1 Missile could have 800 range, 1 missile 600 range and 1 400.
Only then, the missiles could have a small damage buff to 2-shot a bandit, so that 2 defenders get 3 bandits and finally make cost

A good player let each glaive tank just one shot before rushing in and get that position for zero cost.
+0 / -0



PLrankAdminSprung
12 days ago
quote:
so that 2 defenders get 3 bandits and finally make cost

Picket isn't necessarily meant to make cost vs raiders. Its roles already include denying scouts (which can include lone raiders), flex AA, fighting skirmishers, and outranging LLT in porc wars.

quote:
For a 100m defender, 65m glaives or 75m bandits die.

Sure, see above. Remember that the Picket often survives the ordeal. Wreckage also exists, since Picket is defensive it is typically easier for you than your opponent to reclaim the dead raider (and possibly dead Picket), this also works in favour of the Picket.

quote:
let each glaive tank just one shot before rushing in and get that position for zero cost.

It has the opportunity cost of having extra glaives around, meaning there are less places you can be simultaneously, and of the glaives actually being damaged for some time (short but not meaningless, possibly there was backup nearby).
+1 / -0

USrankFealthas
12 days ago
Buff the offender!
+0 / -0

DErankWeltenwind
12 days ago
220m Banshee kills 200m defenders and survive fully.
80m fleas kill 100m defenders and 60m is lost.
Glaives lose 65m and Bandits 75 metal.

Someone said statics should be worth 2x their cost in units, but it is worth 70% it's cost.
Because you can avoid statics until you can steamroll them and catch reclaim
+0 / -0

PTrankraaar
12 days ago
(edited 12 days ago)

imo med/long range defences should beat 2x cost in mobiles of similar range and weapon efficiency (fast/instant/tracking projectile is worth more than slow unguided projectile), even more for the particularly short ranged ones.

the key comparison here would be picket vs fencer. Fencer has the same range, costs 50% more and has no burst, but it's mobile with above average speed and has 2x the hp and dps. It would be op if it didn't have its setup delay and could fire on the move. The only thing picket has going for itself is burst, which gives it niche utility atm.

this reminds me of the hacksaw AA turret. which is has somewhat better burst than pickets but much shorter range. It'd need to be buffed too.
+1 / -0



AUrankAdminAquanim
12 days ago
The point of Picket is that it wins some fights without losses, is flex-AA, and can be used to offend a Lotus. It's not intended to be effective in a straight fight and if it were it would be exceptionally overpowered.
+2 / -0

USrankFealthas
12 days ago
Im not sure it is worth building in its current state though.
+0 / -0

USrankShadowWolfTJC
12 days ago
Personally, I prefer to use Pickets over Lotuses for perimeter defense since they cover more ground than a Lotus. However, for thwarting more substantial pushes by masses of raiders, skirmishers, and/or assaults, I'd rely more upon Stingers and Stardust over Pickets.

Actually, I don't have a high opinion on Lotuses. Sure, they're a bit better at thwarting raider pushes than Pickets, but Stardust, which is only a bit more than twice as expensive as a Lotus, could get the job done much better.
+0 / -0



GBrank[Fx]Drone
12 days ago
Pickets have their uses, I still see a lot of people make them. They barely do anything by themselves but I like to think of it as a sort of support porc turret. It assists the real porc and it just sort of makes it painful for enemy units to move easily around your territory, especially super light stuff.

Also it will always be the go-to turret to build just slightly outside the range of enemy porc :P
+4 / -0


JPrankgajop
12 days ago
I think it's good that the long range porc is slightly shitty. If only skirmishers were slightly shitty as well, things would be great.
+1 / -0



AUrankAdminSaktoth
12 days ago
I'm surprised nobody has mentioned it, but I think we've entered a HLT meta as a result of the picket nerf. You just can't really defend from skirms or do defense wars with the nerfed Picket. So people are rushing HLT instead. This has pros and cons for the meta, it makes it quite a lot harder to stop early light skirmishers.
+4 / -0

DErankWeltenwind
12 days ago
Perhepls the 100m Defender should get a setup time too?
It could start without ammo and have to reload first.
And again, if missiles had 3 different ranges, with the second range being same as lotus now, you have only 1/3 dps against Lotus.

Usually when I build a Stinger, I also build a nano tower behind to repair it and take reclaim or build solars in front of it for more energy and a little bit protection.

By the time I make 2 Stinger, I add a popup aa in front of them for taking hammer damage if they are on fight command only and to have AA in case they make air.
Caretaker will now also heal the popup aa.

But back to Picket, they are worthless once the enemy got 2 hammers which shot at the same time at it.
Especially when he got a 500m radar to make the radar spots more accurate.
280m Hammers will counter not only the 3 pickets, but also which statics they try to protect.

If the enemy got enough hammer-range missiles with my suggested Picket-mechanic, you can add a shield or stealth to hammers which is 520 metal with shield or 3 constructors and they will again kill the Pickets without loss.
With just 1 missile at such a range, shield will still be more cost effective.

And Lotus could have 2/3 but cost only 60m so it can protect a spot where units are guided into by terraform or the Picket behind it
+0 / -0


GBrankdarloth3
11 days ago
Might be interesting if they dropped down and got 75% armour when no missiles were available and they were reloading. They'd still be very fragile, but they'd die a lot less in a support role where they were at the back and weren't immediately focussed.

Not sure it's a good idea, but we already have a few other turrets with vaguely similar behaviour.

If you just want to make them better for cost, they could have a longer range (maybe 660?). That would let them slowly whittle down Stingers if built in an offensive position, and they'd do better in the flex-AA and anti-scout role without being significantly better at raiders or anything much else, and they'd still be a poor choice of DPS per metal.
+0 / -0

USrankSteel_Blue
11 days ago
I still use pickets a lot still.

Their range and burst damage makes them my most prefered turret to build a lot of in no-man's land, between mexes. build a line of them, and they become a safe space for your units to retreat and fight under. Ronin cannot assault a line of pickets with 0 attrition, but ronin can kill a whole bunch of lotus with 0 dead, or at least few losses. a suprise picket or 2 in radar-less territory can turn a glaive war and make your enemy timid. Also, I want my opponent to build hammers or something so my glaives are given more room.

Picket is also extrordinary with it's flex AA capabilities. a lot of people build a razor, but I find it lackluster against anything but gunships, and even that it's lackluster against gunships like Nimbus, which can be outside vision range but within fire range, causing missed shots from radar dots. If they build nimbus, no amount of ground AA will help me anyway unless it's a chainsaw or higher. May as well build swifts or mobile AA that can dodge. But picket helps every bit for air control. what are they concerned about 1 picket? what about 3 pickets? they may still engage my airforce over my pickets and I'm fine with that, cause that area is also ground-covered too.

I think picket still is very strong but situational. It works better when there are more pickets around. We have turrets whos job is to stop raiders for cost like llts and stardust, we don't need every tower to be unassultable.
+0 / -0

DErankWeltenwind
11 days ago
I only use Pickets when Lotus has not enough range to cover 3 mex spots against glaives or bandits.


You say> Build a line of them, and they become a safe space for your units to retreat and fight under.

Only until the enemy gets 2 Hammers and focus-fires Pickets. 3 Pickets and the 2 Hammers made cost.


You say> A suprise picket or 2 in radar-less territory can turn a glaive war and make your enemy timid.

Only if he is stupid enough to fight there instead of making warriors and repairing them.
Once you have enough to kill 1 warrior per fight, the enemy can morph a Shield into Shield Walker and it is much more effective than your defenders because he can choose where to fight with it.


You say> Picket is also extrordinary with it's flex AA capabilities. a lot of people build a razor, but I find it lackluster against anything but gunships, and even that it's lackluster against gunships like Nimbus, which can be outside vision range but within fire range, causing missed shots from radar dots.

You can build a 500m Radar a little bit behind your defense line.
It reduces Radar Wobble and your Razor will not miss any longer.
It also buffs Snipers and Hammers.


You say> If they build nimbus, no amount of ground AA will help me anyway unless it's a chainsaw or higher. May as well build swifts or mobile AA that can dodge. But picket helps every bit for air control. what are they concerned about 1 picket? what about 3 pickets? they may still engage my airforce over my pickets and I'm fine with that, cause that area is also ground-covered too.

You can use Razor also to tank shots against your statics. It increaess survivability of a Stinger if built in front of it.
Especially if you have 2 Stingers, 1 Razor and a Sneaky Pete behind it so that the enemy can'T queue attack orders with hold-fire units.


You say> I think picket still is very strong but situational. It works better when there are more pickets around. We have turrets whos job is to stop raiders for cost like llts and stardust, we don't need every tower to be unassultable.

But what is better? 4 Pickets or 1 Stinger/Gauss?
Stinger kills 1-2 Glaives per shot and has 2 shots before raiders do damage.
You can also repair it a lot better, saving metal in the progress and have less of a problem if the enemy chooses to flank your defense line.

+0 / -0


USrank_Shaman
11 days ago
quote:
Especially when he got a 500m radar to make the radar spots more accurate


I thought reducing radar wobble was removed from Adv. Radar years ago.
+1 / -0



GBrank[GBC]1v0ry_k1ng
11 days ago
It was OP at its old 80m; at 100m it feels overpriced (but situationally useful). I think defender nerf has directly led to the rise of the skirmisher, which was discouraged by Picket spam. I’d like to see what the game looks like with a 90m picket.
+4 / -0


GBrankdarloth3
11 days ago
I'd rather see a slight improvement to stats than a reduction in cost. It feels like it ought to be a mid-weight defense turret, and I like how it explodes easily, so I'd like to see -other- stats go up a bit. If I had my fork actually running properly, I'd try adding more range and see if that ruined it or not.
+0 / -0