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buff crab

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GBrank[Fx]Drone
2 months ago
Spiders suck because redback and crab are useless
+5 / -0

PTrankraaar
2 months ago
not useless!

underpowered.

crab's x3 effective HP when standing still, height bonus and the large AOE give it niche usefulness, but by the time it's fielded often it's facing big armored targets which are slightly more expensive but can kill it even on armored form on attack-move (grizzly and cyclops).

visually, crab's armored pose is also weird.



+3 / -0


GBrankdarloth3
2 months ago
(edited 2 months ago)

Crab is far from useless, and Redback functions as a riot unit if you have nothing else to do that job. I have heard it called the worst of the riot units and I would like it to do more, but then you watch a game of people who are not as excellent at this game as either of the previous posters, and see Redbacks making 2-3x cost against glaives and bandits and scorchers and such.

So, yes underpowered maybe, not useless.

(I still think Spiders should get some form of cheaper / easier terraform to let them make the most of their biggest advantage)
+0 / -0


GBrank[Fx]Drone
2 months ago
underpowered = useless at high level

why make 1 thing when another thing is slightly better?

crabs are a sad joke compared to grizzly or cyclops
+1 / -0

AUrankAquanimTest
2 months ago
(edited 2 months ago)

Both of those units are explicitly supposed to be better against heavies and Crab is explicitly supposed to be better against light units, so I don't know that it's a useful comparison.

Crab might not be good in the current meta where Grizzly and Cyclops are common, but if things change such that that is not the case, I expect Crab to become decent again without any need for direct changes to it.

edit: Another point is that Crab is considerably stronger in the context of team games where more metal is concentrated in small areas.
+0 / -0


ROrankSigero
2 months ago
maybe give spider factory the dirtbag since it will actually be usefull,crab is by far the worst unit of its class,it serves no real pourpese cause it basicly cant counter anything aside from skirmishers,which is also useless cause of recluse and flea.

redback is the 2nd worst riot in the game after ripper,it used to be even worse cause it costed 280 metal which made redback a very rare sight indeed,and kinda tied with ripper for worst riot.But i guess its ability to shoot over each other matters in large numbers.But as a riot it should help early game vs raiders not lategame blobs.

My problem with crabe is that sure its a good support unit that u can use as a mobile stinger,but its quite expensive for that i rather just push with stingers instead or even llts,every other factories heavy unit hard counters crabe.PPl say oh but crabe is the only heavy riot,well ive had crabes die to fleas and raiders so many times that i can say for sure it sucks at rioting.This unit is just a support unit that it simply dose not synergize with any units (except hermit) from the factory actually it even makes u not want to use fleas or venoms.
Sure make a spire and it becomes this impassable area,but it just means your a defensive lobster and just waiting to get rekt by a hardcounter like sumo or wyvern.Very rarely do i make crabes and when i do its usualy because ive allready broke trhu and i just want a mobile stinger i can place on a tasty hill or something to secure the recalim behinde the push,everytime i regret it.
+2 / -0


GBrank[Fx]Drone
2 months ago
Crab is so gimmicky with its armored mode crap. Lets leave grizzly and cyclops aside, what is the other fac that is popular on wonky terrain maps? Jump bots. Have you guys ever seen placeholder or jugglenaut vs crap? It's not a pretty sight.

Ive even saw crab vs rovers once and some ravagers just drove into it and uprooted it and killed it in seconds.

Whats its purpose? Killing skirmishers? Recluse is strongest skirmisher so why would it need a crab for that? I bet it doesnt even beat a rogue ball.

As for Redback, I've seen redbacks lose to glaives plenty of times. It's an extremely slow moving riot with no AoE that can be swarmed with ease. However redback is so slow that you can usually just ignore it.

Spider lab has always felt extremely niche and only existing on very specific maps. Ravagedv2 for example but now I wouldnt even consider making spiders here.

Spider strength = skirmishers. Stingers > skirmishers. Artillery > Stingers. Spider has no artillery. Crab doesnt beat stingers effectively either, trust me I've tried.
+2 / -0


AUrankSnuggleBass
2 months ago
Interesting how the meta shifts. Crabe used to be considered one of the stronger units.

I think of it in terms of CCG stats.

Grizzly and cyclops are more balanced stat-wise, with large hitpoints and large damage, functionally single target. This makes them good at killing other stuff with high stats. Let's say they're each the equivelent of a 6/6 for 5. They're good at trading 'up', and able to efficiently trade down albeit at the cost of tempo (it takes a long time to kill granular units one at a time).

Crabe is better at trading 'down'. Maybe it's a 3/6 for 4, with taunt under mountainous conditions.

When the meta favours hoards of crappy units, crabe feels real strong. But atm tanks and amph are seeing a resurgence, and a 6/6 is happy to trade into 3/6s all day. So crabe feels like trash.

I'm hoping that metaphor didn't just complicate things...

I think that their case is probably a little under-stated. It's true they have issues vs. jugglenaught, grizz, cyclops, but it's good at clearing screening units, and it's in the same factory as infiltrator. They're also a solid artillery unit, in that they outrange relevant porc (if you take into account splash range). There is an issue in spiders where the crabe does not play well with most of the rest of the fac though, and spiderfac in general sucks balls against wyvern.
+4 / -0




EErankAdminAnarchid
2 months ago
Crabe could have enough range to outrange Stinger without manual AoE targeting.

I mean, what's the worst that could happen which didn't already happen.
+7 / -0


GBrankdarloth3
2 months ago
(edited 2 months ago)

Perhaps crab could have a minor range boost when it's stationary and curled up to achieve this? Not that it moves that fast anyway, but this would make it stronger in its current strongest role of being a turret you can advance with.

It still wouldn't be a counter to heavy units... but spider has widow for that, doesn't it?

(Also translations for those who are unaware of old names:
wyvern = licho, implosion bomber
infiltrator = widow, cloaked burst stun spider)
+3 / -0



SErankGodde
2 months ago
(edited 2 months ago)

A gameplay/engine change that affects Crabe hugely is that units with ballistic weapons can fire up cliffs much more reliably now. A Crabe situated on a steep cliff used to be untargetable by short range ballistic weapons from below.
+0 / -0


FIrankVermind
2 months ago
(edited 2 months ago)

I agree with Crab having issues. It and recluse both cannot handle Stingers. This makes it pretty hard to deal with fortifications with spiders. If the stinger is paired with Lotuses, you can't use Fleas or Widows cost-effectively. only massed Hermits + some Venoms make sense in that scenario, and to protect them from enemy light units while they clear the porc is challenging.
If either Recluse or Crab, or preferably both, outranged Stinger by just a little bit, it would be enough.

Another thing to note is that Crab and Recluse have about the same range, which makes Crab just a beefier recluse with AoE damage.
+0 / -0



AUrankAdminGoogleFrog
2 months ago
I forgot to buff Crab.
+5 / -0

NLrankWesley
2 months ago
bonus range when armored up maybe? :3
+0 / -0

DEranksh4dowhun7er
2 months ago
Couldn't crab get an indirect fire toggle that increases its max range, converting it to a semi-stationary artillery unit? The high arc would make it near useless against units that don't move in a straight line, but good for sieging stingers. If it got attacked, it could toggle back to its direct fire semi-riot role.
Alternatively you could let it toggle between its plasma cannon and a slightly lower ranged, faster fire, somewhat lower dps plasma pulser -> good against small units, as stated in description.
Or just add a particle cannon under its barrel (only able to move within 45° of the barrel and having lower range) for hitting faster moving units, and maybe buffing the plasma cannons range.

Spider fac would need either an artillery unit or cheap medium range terraform to have any chance against even a single DDM.
One suggestion: changing redback from bad riot to direct-fire particle artillery. 1/3 of its RoF, but avg artillery range. One could hide his structures/units behind walls, but that would render most unable to attack back as well. Counter with indirect fire artillery behind small cover.
+0 / -0

PTrankraaar
2 months ago
a simple buff would be to add 100 range.
+0 / -0

USrankFealthas
2 months ago
Hm...more long ranged heavies.
I don't see what could possibly go wrong.
+4 / -0




EErankAdminAnarchid
2 months ago
(edited 2 months ago)

quote:
I don't see what could possibly go wrong.

It has all gone wrong already, so i choose to revel in it rather than lament it.

Besides, with aoe abuse, crab already can kill Stinger.

I, for one, welcome our new artycrab overlords.
+4 / -0

PTrankraaar
2 months ago
(edited 2 months ago)

crab is an underpowered unit for its cost compared to the alternatives:
- cyclops and grizzly for heavy skirmishing/assault
- spamming rogues or recluses for skirmishing (the dps/cost difference is huge and crab is somewhat equivalently vulnerable when moving at the moment, considering its cost)


you could make it more assaultish instead, like the big fat hermit it appears to be:
cost 1600 -> 1400
range 600 -> 500
hp 4000 -> 6000 (reduce armored bonus to x1.5 or x2 instead of x3 or something)



there's lots of nonsense in zk. I think trying too hard to avoid making units generically useful while ignoring their models and animations is partly why that happened.

- plasma cannons with no AOE that consistently miss vs wobbly radar dots
- lookalike weapons which behave radically different (crab cannon vs cyclops cannon)
- fire damage over time duration varies wildly (firewalker/blastwing vs pyro vs dante)
- arbitrary rules like disarm damage which lead to designs that are often either useless or extremelly oppressive
- striders that are more easily be countered by half their cost in normal units than the cheaper heavies because they focused on extreme short range dps
- extreme burst that makes units waste most of their dps (moderator, battleship, merlin)
- wildly inaccurate artillery deciding games due to rng (bertha, tremor)
- nonsense crab armored pose
- units with models that are too short for their role so they often get their line of fire blocked. This affects some riots and fire support units like lance and fencer (fencers might be OP otherwise)


people will eventually learn to avoid the gimmicky units later in the game and cherry pick the effective ones.
+3 / -1


AUrankSnuggleBass
2 months ago
FIrankVermind
Crabe is a very strong counter to stingers. It may not have the natural range, but if you manually fire it from just out of range, the splash will take down the stinger. This makes it an artillery with a riot sidearm, which historically has been very strong.

@erryone
I know we like to buff strengths and nerf weaknesses, but I see the weakness to being pushed out of defensive mode as unnecessary. I propose that crabe locks into place like a siege tank when armouring up. This would stop:
- being pushed around by ravagers and whatever else.
- being thrown off spires by wyvern.
- being pulled from mountains by sumo.

However, it's not like crabe doesn't have other weaknesses ripe for exploitation.
- Terra spires can be flattened.
- It can be sniped while moving.
- It can be artilleried to death.
- Grizz, cyclops, dante, ultimatum, krow all just walk up to it and delete it even when it's in position.
- Raider swarms kill it.
- Zeus walk over it.
- Sufficiently large skirm balls make cost against isolated crabes (and crabes are easy to isolate).

Crabe is half unit and half static, with even more weaknesses than the sum of both. It's got too many weaknesses, which makes it really good against people who don't know the counters, and really bad vs. people who do.

It makes sense for crabe to lock itself to the land. It's all-terrain, so it's naturally got the ability to at least hold it's weight vertically. It's a walking fortress, so it doesn't make sense for it to be pushed around. On top of this, both sumo and licho crush all of spider factory already, they don't need to smack crabe around to retain their usefulness against the factory.
+9 / -0
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