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tanks

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FIrankFlorisXIV
4 months ago
Yup,

really hold off the boat of tanks being OP, but they are. It is definitive now.

Suggsetions to fix include:

reduce panther range by ~25%
increase Kodatsji cost to ~200 metal.
Remove autoheal from Kodatsji.
Remove Goliath from the Zero-K
Decrease speed of panther to 75% of scorcher
Decrease HP of panther to 2.33 voley of defender
Remove stun from panther, just normal damage.


Main problem is that panther, as a raider, beats riots (leveler) for cost. This should not be the case.

We'll talk about Banisher after the tank raiders get sorted.
+2 / -2


AUrankAdminAquanim
4 months ago
quote:
Remove Goliath from the Zero-K

Am I supposed to be taking this post seriously?
+5 / -1


PLrankzenfur
4 months ago
Ogre/Banisher sucks as a riot, but it's good AA against gunships.

For me the biggest offenders are Blitz and Emissary. Blitz was already thoroughly discussed (bcs of its fatness and emp it snowballs too hard), so I'll focus on Emissary.

  • Emissary is too accurate and thus effective against units. When I watched last tournament, all of the loosing games by Drone were won by the use of emissary - by sniping other skirmishers and commanders, not really defenses.
  • Emissary could get the slasher/crabe treatment - it needs to set up and unfold its gun while stationary to start shooting so shooting while moving is prevented and rushing it undefended with lesser units is more viable.
  • As it hits in small AoE it could have inherent wiggle like BigBertha has (of course - lesser).
  • Removing the AoE could also be a solution, but I don't like it.
  • Easy and simple modification is increasing the arc and travel time of the particle.

Some combination of the above.

On the other hand, Emissary is (apart from Firewalker), the only good generalist artilery. So good it could be called a skirmisher that tanks lack with Tremor being true artilery (shitty as all artis).

Pls don't nerf, I loved to (ab)use it.
+1 / -0


NOrankKingstad
4 months ago
The most relevant past change to tanks for reference: https://zero-k.info/Forum/Thread/24901
+0 / -0

FIrankFlorisXIV
4 months ago
Does tank need any raiders at all?

The gameplay as tanks vs X would be nice if tanks would do the shooting con expo stuff that is really hard to stop and the other guy prepares for inevitable strong push.

quote:

Am I supposed to be taking this post seriously?


I still think Zero-k could do without any of the >1000 metal units.
+0 / -0


USrank_Shaman
4 months ago
(edited 4 months ago)

Tremor costs too much for what it does to be honest.
Pillager is OP due to a possible micromanagement that would allow it to fire on the move. Turns it into a sniper level skirmisher.
Banisher is kinda meh as a riot. It doesn't have enough fire rate to keep up with swarms of raiders. Seems to be rushed almost every game in larger team games.
Koda has absurd amounts of idle repair, but doesn't scale too well with other kodas and can't synergize well with panther.
Panther is the go to spam raider for tank with good hp and potential stunlock in greater groups. I think panther is a better riot sometimes than bani.
Reaper is just a bigger better more expensive ravager.
Goliath is.. a bit absurd at times. Can slow heavies down when you have multiples of them and kill them off pretty easily.
+0 / -0




EErankAdminAnarchid
4 months ago
(edited 4 months ago)

quote:
Main problem is that panther, as a raider, beats riots (leveler) for cost. This should not be the case.

Sounds like a good reason to instead buff Ripper to not be entirely useless. Though i like the range nerf idea. Currently Blitz almost outranges Reaver and Ripper.

This also applies to Archer, which legit outranges Reaver, Ripper, and Venom while matching range with Redback and Scallop. Raiders are supposed to be shorter range than riots, i think.

quote:
Remove Goliath from the Zero-K

I don't think it's that problematic compared to the other heavies. Cyclops' biggest annoyance is that it outclasses all other tanks while Blitz outclasses most tanks. So Tank mirrors are extremely one-dimensional progressions from one kodachi to blitz spam to cyclops spam.
+0 / -0

CZrankpsaniac
4 months ago
Blitz is one of those units which sit on the edge of being overpowered or underpowered. Like Scalpel or Dagger, a seemingly small change can nerf the unit into oblivion. A 25% range nerf is absolute madness.

Now Blitz is definitely OP, but it really doesn't need to be nerfed as much as you think.

Here's my suggestion - increase Blitz reload time and bring back the EMP death explosion. More reload would mean the Blitz would have a much harder time permastunning things, especially assaults. The EMP death explosion reduces their mindless stackablity - they cant afford to suicide, not even a little bit into things like riots.

Ripper should be buffed anyways. It dying to raiders is no news.

Also, Kodachi OP? Really? I would like a replay.
+1 / -0

HRrankMajo
4 months ago
The only somewhat viable counter to a current blitz ball from rover fac is either a dom ball or a dart swarm. And Dart's still suffer from low turret/gun turn rate killing it's DPS, it's a raider unit it should be able to rotate as fast as it can possibly go, otherwise why not just make them front shooting landwolfs.
+0 / -0


GBrank[GBC]1v0ry_k1ng
4 months ago
I think the issue with the Blitz - and the difficulty of balancing the Blitz - come from it being too generalist. It’s got too many strengths and no obvious weakness - faster than other raiders, tougher than other raiders, accurate enough to shoot down crawling bombs, alpha damage & range to skirmish and an emp anti-heavy sidearm.

I think Blitz should be a more polarised version of duck - an anti-raider raider. Slower than other raiders but able to beat them with alpha & weight; bad at attacking into porc, and still frightened of riots. That probably entails less durability, less speed, higher dam output for cost and lower weight/ cost.
+0 / -0

HRrankMajo
4 months ago
Just return them their old EMP death and give them higher inaccuracy for their guns, so they'll still be effective vs bigger units but crap against smaller ones.
+0 / -0




EErankAdminAnarchid
4 months ago
quote:
I think the issue with the Blitz - and the difficulty of balancing the Blitz - come from it being too generalist.

I'd be tempted to say that the issue is that it is the highest-weight raider while many riots are designed to expect low-weight raiders.

But most other high-weight raiders - Scythe, Pyro - don't really have these issues. Archer does. And what does Blitz and Archer have in common? Being able to outrange, or match range, with riots.

The solution seems simple here.
+0 / -0


PLrankAdminSprung
4 months ago
(edited 4 months ago)

quote:
Scythe, Pyro - don't really have these issues. Archer does. And what does Blitz and Archer have in common?

Not having a cloak/jump gimmick that justifies gimped stats?
+1 / -0


CHrankConnetable
4 months ago
One underused but interesting counter to tanks is dirtbags, but it is sadly not available in every fac.
+0 / -0




EErankAdminAnarchid
4 months ago
Archer has a move-lock gimmick and Blitz has stunlock gimmick. Gimp he!
+1 / -0

ROrankSigero
4 months ago
panther is basicly unstopable by riots or porc,as soon as you get 5+ panthers and enemy has same ammount of riots you can simply outmanuver them,and raid everything,cause if u spread the riots out to cover your shit they will die 1 by 1.

Emisarry is definetly OP cause of its accuracy,even if it fires at radar dots it will still deal substantial damage,and that dmg is just so high it outclasses all other arty because it virtually can deal with all other arty and as we all know best arty counter is better arty.
+1 / -0

PTrankraaar
4 months ago
(edited 4 months ago)

many units on ZK have mechanics that make them snowball harder than normal, which makes them really oppressive in groups, especially if they have local advantage in cost: harpy, moderator, dominatrix, buoy

fortunately, many of these are also counterable by just making longer ranged skirmishers and killing them while avoiding their shots

blitzes are shorter ranged than riots, but they're so fast and have enough HP to absorb some burst that their enemies can't avoid trading shots.

I'm not sure if they're OP on "raw cost effectiveness" as their dps/cost is much lower than other raiders, it's just that the game doesn't provide enough counters to them.

The counters that rely on good defenses + advancing group of slow units are at risk of getting thunderbirded and overrun anyway, but that's a problem with thunderbird, not blitz.
+1 / -0

ROrankSigero
4 months ago
i really hate that you can only(efficiently) counter arty with bigger arty...Air sure works but once u kill a few ,enemy has AA and then what do you do? make bigger arty.As soon as arty behinde heavy porc shows you virtually cant do anything but escalate asap while going full retreat to maintain your army.Either that or make a fanatical assault to kill the arty and the porc and discourage further use.
+5 / -0

PRrankScrangos
4 months ago
ogre sucks what?

its an AMAZING riot against mid heavy raiders like blitzes and scorchers.

if you are up against glaives, bandits, daggers and light raiders just use kodachis or blitzes as riots. because when your raiders beat their raiders, you dont need riots.
+0 / -0

CZrankpsaniac
4 months ago
Small reminder: The old Blitz before the buff had only slightly lower stats but was considered underpowered.

Changes required to move Blitz from UP to OP:

Removed unique EMP explosion as it is often detrimental.
Normal damge 170 -> 200
Reload time 2.6 -> 2.7 (old value was 3)

This is why we should increase reload and bring back self-EMP. It wasn't OP before.
+0 / -0
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