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The current state of tank

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GBrankdyth68
23 days ago
Tank has had a number of changes recently, so I wanted to make a thread to talk about its current state. Particularly as it's the main factory I play.

Overall:
The main thing it's currently lacking is anti-unit raiders: Fast, high dps units that can dodge around clumsy enemy fire and take out key vulnerable targets such as artillery, skirmishers, non-riot heavies and silos.

As a much smaller problem it also lacks a dedicated skirmisher. Previously Emissary and Cyclops could do some skirmishing, but struggle now. Ogre and Minotaur can step in to the role in some circumstances, but tank does have a vulnerability to skirmishers atm if they can't find a strategic and safe place to park an Emissary.

The individual units:
  • Kodachi is the best-in-class early game eco raider and mid-game raider interceptor, but can't do any other jobs. A good specialist with a well defined role. 5 stars
  • Blitz is ok at mid-game eco raiding, but pretty much useless otherwise due to absolutely terrible DPS for its cost combined with poor hp. A raider that lacks the DPS to raid. 2 stars
  • Ogre is a decent riot unit that can do a bit of skirmishing and AA on the side and balls very well. A riot unit with maybe a bit too much generalism. 4 stars
  • Minotaur is a great assault unit, fast, tough and with enough DPS to break what it needs to, retreating to repair when low on health. Great at its main job with the weaknesses to balance out its strengths. 5 stars
  • Cyclops is a confused janky mess I'm struggling to find a use for atm. Janky mechanics and no real role. 2 stars
  • Emissary is a decent bit of artillery, but the unit AI seems to think it's a skirmisher and tries to open the distance when slower units get close (which, of course, it can't do any more due to the turret stowing mechanic). Good concept but needs some de-janking. 4 stars
  • Tremor - killing shield bubbles, bunched up armies in team games and maybe a little bit of hunting cloaked units. Serviceable in its (somewhat specialized) role, but the mass terrain smoothing can make many maps into confusing optical illusions that will have you making the wrong decisions. 4 stars
  • Ettin is a pretty good AA unit, great against gunships and very large Raven swarms, weak to smaller numbers of Ravens and Lihkos. Well balanced AA with its own set of strengths and weaknesses. 5 stars

What do you think of tankfac?
+1 / -0



PLrankzenfur
23 days ago
(edited 23 days ago)

Ettin is rarely useful (aka bad). It's so expensive that you can't afford one early game. 2 Ettins cost more than Chainsaw which I'd prefer than have 2 Ettins. But yeah its one of the best AAs against gunships like Nimbus.

Koda is too survivable for how excellent job it does.

I'd like to see iteration of Minotaurs that fire twice as often with single bullet...

Emissary changes are in good direction but feel terrible without visual indicator. They should siege up like a crane does or like siege tanks in starcraft do. Or just make its acceleration terrible at all times (give some hp in return).

I won't comment on cyclops. At least its not op anymore.

Tanks don't and probably shouldn't skirmish. It's not their fantasy. They use brute force.

@edit: buff blitz by making it 1shot glavie, 2shot mex; nerf the stun time (make it very brief stun emp time, like 0.3 sec)
+2 / -0

NLrankWesley
23 days ago
Welder: improved mason 4 stars
+0 / -0



EErankAdminAnarchid
23 days ago
(edited 23 days ago)

quote:
The main thing it's currently lacking is anti-unit raiders: Fast, high dps units that can dodge around clumsy enemy fire and take out key vulnerable targets such as artillery, skirmishers, non-riot heavies and silos.

I usually phrase this as "both tank raider units are not raiders, but antiraiders".

Both Koda and Blitz have historically been better at killing enemy raiders, rather than raiding themselves. The current lighter, faster reloading koda is maybe a step in the right direction.
+1 / -0


GBrankdyth68
23 days ago
EErankAdminAnarchid: But current Koda and Blitz are not anti-raiders. :(
Maybe Blitz should be looked at again to make it useful?
+1 / -0



EErankAdminAnarchid
23 days ago
(edited 23 days ago)

Current koda and blitz are also antiraiders. Blitz is not good for killing statics or quickly killing skirmishers, or any of the other things you've described above. But it's quite good at one-shotting Glaives and mass-murdering Scorchers.

The current Kodachi will probably take an hour to kill a factory. But it still can kill a swarm of glaives with some well-placed shots.
+0 / -0

USrankRyMarq
23 days ago
Overall I think Tank is in a decent place atm. If I were to change anything, it would be to make cyclops a more dedicated anti-heavy, in a cleaner implementation towards that ideal (slower stronger shots, perhaps with longer range, burstier slow beam).

Tremor causing visual problems is an issue, though not exactly a balance one. I would perhaps prefer it to warp the texture of the terrain like terraforming does, so its more clear whats going on.

Blitz is an odd unit, but I think a lightning raider has a purpose. Its powerful at having low attrition, when it overwhelms. I suspect it could be better tuned, but do not have recommendations toward that end.

Ettin is a bit of an odd-ball in terms of AA quality. Its pretty mobile and tanky, and when stacked can make a zone that is nearly impenetrable. Its probably fine to keep it as it is, especially given that Ogre works as decent flex-AA (as does blitz).


Most problematic units for the fac have been tuned to be reasonable, while retaining their flavor. I am pretty pleased where Tank has gone over the last few patches.
+1 / -0


GBrankdyth68
23 days ago
EErankAdminAnarchid : Uh, have you used Blitz recently? It can't one-shot Glaives.
Before my previous post I tried out Blitz vs each other raider class in sandbox. It barely scraped a win against Pyros (some luck involved), everything else was a massacre.
The low attrition overwhelm that USrankRyMarq points out is its only real selling point and given it can be chased down and overwhelmed by a similar sized raider swarm...

Koda can only kill Glaives with a lot of space and micro and an opponent who isn't microing to avoid the firepools you're force firing everywhere.
+2 / -0



AUrankAdminGoogleFrog
23 days ago
I think Kodachi is a little too survivable/sustainable. It needs to be a little more discouraged (or slowed down) by the presence of LLT, otherwise the matchup is too dependent on the other factories raider. This goes poorly for Shieldbots.
+3 / -0



SErankGodde
23 days ago
Kodachi has become mostly a non-issue for me. The lower burn time and alpha damage makes it a chore to actually kill enemy raiders without losing Kodachis in the process. Glaives can simply retreat and regen instead of trying to chase down the Kodachi. I mostly use Kodachis to scout and force the enemy to spend some resources on defense and raiders, and then switch to Blitzes for defense.
Unchecked Kodachis surely are strong at what they do, but skilled players typically have Darts and Scorchers that can deal with them pretty easily and costeffectively.
You can play really conservative with Kodachis and micro them well, and try to bait the enemy forces into the fires. This tactic works well as a supplement to defense and artillery creep which works especially well with Welders.
+1 / -0



AUrankAdminGoogleFrog
22 days ago
Yes, but what about Shieldbots?
+0 / -0



SErankGodde
22 days ago
I can't remember the last time I had that match-up in 1v1.
Where I went shieldbots, I go jumpybots now, and on flat maps where I go tanks, shieldbots are generally a suboptimal choice.
+1 / -0



EErankAdminAnarchid
22 days ago
(edited 22 days ago)

quote:
Uh, have you used Blitz recently? It can't one-shot Glaives.

Ah, right, i forgot about the nerf. Shows how much i use it.

quote:
Koda can only kill Glaives with a lot of space and micro and an opponent who isn't microing to avoid the firepools you're force firing everywhere.


Blitz not being able to oneshot Glaive and Kodachi not automatically winning vs other raiders just makes them bad antiraiders - which is fine imo, because the job of killing raiders should belong to riots.

+0 / -0

PTrankraaar
22 days ago
dah

blitz can't 1 shot raiders, by a small margin, kodachi deals small amounts of damage with good AOE (which scale up considerably if the affected units stay on it). How about a 1,2 kodachi,blitz mix? People fail to consider mixes.


kodachi's reduced range does make it unreliable in this game as it's full of high dps units which outrange enough to prevent it from firing in groups, or at least ensuring it won't escape. It could trade something else for a bit of range.


quote:
ettin bad AA

there's an edge case interaction where a single ettin may get bursted by a pair of ravens it's supposed to counter, without killing any, and having the ravens almost make cost through that single interaction. Other than that...

ETTIN
500M: 1400HP, 92m/s, 225dps,900 range, 32 aoe, can miss radar wobbling targets

TOAD
550M: 1500HP, 61m/s + jump, (164dps,820 range)+(78 dps,1040 range), both without aoe and can miss radar wobbling targets


If ettin's bad, then toad is terrible.
+2 / -0


GBrank[GBC]1v0ry_k1ng
22 days ago
I think Bltiz could be fixed by removing its alpha and giving it a constant fire weapon. High weight, high speed and high alpha is just a toxic combo - lose one of the three and it will be much easier to balance.
+0 / -0

AUrankisaach
22 days ago
Give it a little EMG and call it the flash tank
+3 / -0


GBrankdyth68
22 days ago
(edited 22 days ago)

quote:
toad is terrible

I thought this was the consensus?
Also, it's not just with one Ettin that Ravens can make cost. At 3 Ettins a squad of 6 Ravens can trade 2 of their own for 2 Ettins (provided the Raven player knows where the Ettins are), a very good trade.
An Ogre ball will actually fare better...

AUrankAdminGoogleFrog : Are you thinking a raider vs raider battles or Bandits trying to chase down Kodachis?
At low micro levels attack moved kodachis trade fairly evenly with attack moved bandits (if the former don't just run away).

EDIT:
PTrankraaar: The friendly fire from the Kodachis offsets their usefulness. They generally do more damage to their own ball than any enemy.
+0 / -0

USrankFealthas
22 days ago
Literally nobody attack moves kodachis
+1 / -0


GBrankdyth68
22 days ago
I certainly have when I get distracted or otherwise can't spare the attention. Admittedly, that's mostly if I'm trying to use one past the opening.
And I think you'll find plenty of people attack-move kodachis in Subgiant and below games.

Do Bandits lose to Kodachis when both are microd?
+0 / -0



AUrankAdminGoogleFrog
22 days ago
I'm talking about Kodachi as a mex-killer, not in a direct fight. It can take many slow raiders to adequately defend your mexes from Kodachi.
+1 / -0
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