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Little used/underpowered units

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GBrankdyth68
28 days ago
What are some of the most underpowered units in Zero K?
By this I mean either a unit that is almost never seen in games (and if they are seen are almost always a waste of metal) or a factory unit that you will never build if you have another factory that makes a unit of the same class (e.g. riot).
My top ten to start off:
1. Hacksaw. I see this very rarely by experienced players and when built it rarely effects the game much due to its short range and fragility.
2. Scuttle. Seen very rarely, high micro and normally doesn't make cost.
3. Limpet.
4. Knight. I see this a lot more than the others, but wouldn't make it myself (nor have I seen it made) if another ground factory is available. Seems to be the worst assault unit.
5. Funnelweb. Shut down by a razor.
6. Newton. Very rarely seen for anything other than ramp trolling.
7. Toad. Fragile, slow, expensive. Moderators often chosen instead.
8. Duck. Self-pwnage, never made for land battles if you have another raider type available.
9. Blitz. A raider in the same fac as the best anti-eco raider in the game and it can't cost effectively fight other raiders. If another factory is available then it's unlikely to be chosen.
10. Harpy. Fragile, poor DPS, mediocre range, not very fast.
+4 / -0


AUrankAdminAquanim
28 days ago
In my experience Newton is a bit of a Goldilocks unit in that the situation and surrounding terrain have to be just right for it to be effective as a defensive turret.

If those conditions are met, though...
+1 / -0

NLrankWesley
28 days ago
Teams or 1v1?
+1 / -0

CZrankpsaniac
28 days ago
The sad thing is that a long time ago Skuttle, Blitz and Harpy were all pretty good units, slightly overpowered even. The community exagerrated the overpoweredness a bit. Then after months of escalated complaining, they were hit with the massively oversized nerf hammer.

And now they are nearly useless.

There are more underpowered units though.
1. Dirtbag. The best this thing can do is to be a slight nuisance.
2. Revenant. Too slow, becomes obslolete very quickly, and Nimbus is better then it in most ways.
3. Hawk. This is probably due to Swift being just better in every way.
4. Detriment. Just look at the price tag.
+0 / -0

DErankAdminmojjj
28 days ago
psst. do you know what quake is?
+1 / -0



GBrankSparkles
28 days ago
Sparkle's balance. I swear by this.

Glaive: Slight OP
Zeus: Slight UP
Hammer: Slight UP

Dirtbag: Slight UP
Racketeer: Slight UP
Roach: Slight OP

Constable: OP
Toad: UP
Skuttle: Slight UP

Venom: Slight UP
Redback: Slight UP
Recluse: Slight OP

Mason: Slight UP
Dart: Slight UP
Scorcher: Slight OP
Fencer: Slight OP
Wolverine: UP

Blitz: Slight UP
Cyclops: UP

Claymore: Slight OP

Duck: Slight UP
Archer: Slight UP
Grizzly: OP
Djinn: Slight UP

Hawk: Slight UP
Thunderbird: OP

Harpy: Slight UP

Hunter: Slight UP
Envoy: Slight OP

Funnelweb: UP
Detriment: UP
Bantha: Slight OP
Reef: UP

Nuke Silo: Slight OP

Shockley: Slight OP

Chainsaw: Slight UP

Speed-raiding with low cost units (flea, glaive) still a very real game deciding meta in 1v1, to which I feel more turret options (suicide turrets, mines, decoys, AoE turrets, super-light faradays) might help. Basically what I'm saying is that if we're going to have factory rock-paper-scissors, at least make the generic / defensive tools available to all players cover more scenarios.

+7 / -0

FIrankAdminAlcur
28 days ago
CZrankpsaniac
quote:
1. Dirtbag. The best this thing can do is to be a slight nuisance.

Aren't they pretty good at trapping tanks, scouting or revealing cloaked units?
+3 / -0


GBrankdyth68
27 days ago
(edited 27 days ago)

NLrankWesley
quote:
Teams or 1v1?

Both. ;)
+0 / -0

USrankFealthas
27 days ago
gib detri buff
+2 / -0

USrankjuanisafinehumanbeing
27 days ago
quote:
Detriment. Just look at the price tag.

this. maybe 20k M/E would be a better fit.

personally the most useless unit is swift. for a unit this weak both in damage and health, the cost should be halved. this is why whenever i go aircraft fac, i only do ravens or bombers. swift is too expensive for a unit so weak.
+0 / -0

ZArankAstran
27 days ago
Sparkles' list is pretty good.

But with everything, it often depends on the player using the units and what he's using them against.

For example, there was once a player called "Sabaton" who demonstrated that Dirtbag was OP. ;)

While I understand the criticism against Hacksaw, it's a cheap unit that can be popped up in no time at all, and it provides good point defence against comm-killing ravens. Usually comm strikes are calculated by the bomber, so a hacksaw can not only save a comm from death by a singe bomber hit, but also provide a 150 metal payday.

I personally find Darts super-useless and (probably because I'm a lobster) I feel Daggers really suck the hind tit too. Detriment and Funnelweb are also total noob traps. Lobster is another unit that is rarely used and pretty situational. Picket also feels weak to me for the cost.

Finally, my pet peeve, Outlaw.

Shields are virtually shut down by the snitch + iris combo, and Outlaw is the unit that should protect against this. The range is just short enough to be ineffective in a big shieldball, and I have to invest a fortune into this 250 metal unit (that is basically only really good against flea spam because it deals so little damage) in order to have enough to protect against getting a roach up the back door.
+0 / -0



EErankAdminAnarchid
27 days ago
(edited 27 days ago)

quote:
Shields are virtually shut down by the snitch + iris combo, and Outlaw is the unit that should protect against this.

If you are using Outlaw for the stopping power, then you will need many, yes. If you use Outlaw mainly as decloaker and aoe force-multiplier, then you can use Felon for the stopping power.

quote:
I personally find Darts super-useless and (probably because I'm a lobster)

Darts are borderline OP. Buff any of their stats 10% and they will counter the whole of tankfac without even needing Scorchers for the DPS.

They roflstomp Ducks, Blitzes, make Scythes cry cloaked tears, and fight evenly against Daggers. Most importantly, they are a terrifying addition to any Rover combination because they have this thing that prevents you from running away before you kill them.

Oh, and they're one way to beat the annoying and OP Constable spam. Better not buff something that beats Constable or SErankGodde will be sad, and constable will probably be buffed to also have AoE or something.

quote:
gib detri buff

Jumpdet
+1 / -0



SErankGodde
27 days ago
Reef. Has been changed quite a lot through the years. It now has some weird 10 second disarm missiles that costs 150 metal a pop, no anti-nuke, easily denied drones and a repair rate for aircraft that will make you wonder where all your bombers went.
+3 / -0

ZArankAstran
27 days ago
Anarchid I use Outlaw to decloak (and slow) snitch so that felon can kill it. It's still barely adequate for the job. On serious shieldballs you need them at the fringes of the ball; 1-3 won't do the job.

I'll give Dart another try-out. Maybe i've been using it wrong.
+0 / -0


GBrankthe_green_squig
27 days ago
I'll have to strongly disagree with the Outlaw remarks. I think they are solid. Eradicating infinite fleas is actually a rather useful niche. However, by themselves, they're not intended to achieve much. They should always be working in combination with other things. I find outlaw, rogue and bandit are a good early game skirmishing (in the general meaning of fighting mobile, low intensity battles rather than the specific Zero-K unit function) combination while being resistant to raider and riot counterattack (Outlaw cripples the advancing raiders, meaning my own raiders can dispatch them with ease, rogues dispatch riots (albeit not as quickly as I like) and once raider or riots are dispatched, isolated assaults become prey as well). Despite its other faults, rogue outranges all ground skirmishers besides the Recluse, and can generally trade with them.

Despite its range, I think the rogue is the weaker link in shield fac, and it's not outrageously bad, just irritating on account of the slow rockets (more AOE at current projectile speed, or more projectile speed please!) Vandal is worse (I think of it as the FAAilbot), essentially the Redback of the AA category. At less than twice the price, the Gremlin instahits aircraft for nearly twice the DPS and packs a cloak that gives it fantastic utility as a scout as well

The Outlaw isn't by itself a hard counter to anything, except fleaspam. When it comes to Iris/Snitch however, a shield ball with embedded outlaws is much more difficult to get close enough to in order to inflict critical damage. Identifying the most viable angle of attack takes considerable time, concentration and APM- which must inevitably be diverted from elsewhere. The Outlaw won't kill the snitches, but it might deter them from coming in the first place which has the same effect.

Darts are good for most of the same reasons that fleas are good. They're utility units that can screen against cloaks and anti-heavies and especially Dominatrices (you can have 10 for the price of one Domi- and that Domi will not live long enough to capture more than one).

Hermits don't see much use in my game. They don't seem to have any perks at all, (at least Thugs which are otherwise similar, have the shield mechanics to spice them up). However, I think that's just a case of personal preference.

I'll second the general pointlessness of hacksaws though. I don't think I've ever built one. Unless you've somehow got metal to spare at exactly the right moment, you probably won't even get it up in time to stop the pack of Ravens from wrecking your comm.

Limpets seem pretty pointless as well. Why slow when you can blow?

Although I see them quite often, I don't think badgers are worth an investment. They only moderately outrange fencers, the mines seem to miss most of the time when do go off and don't hurt much even if they do hit something. A badger minefield rarely deters a concerted assault.

The Revenant doesn't seem to accomplish much for its cost either. Nimbus does almost the same DPS from far further away. The only real niche seems to be comm assassination and it doesn't even have that niche to itself (Scythe, Raven, both of which have more general utility as well) and the rocket volleys are so inaccurate they don't even hit structures that well which is what they're apparently supposed to do (which also erodes the volley advantage it should have for putting itself in more danger). Perhaps it would benefit from becoming a mini-Krow that goes to its target, drops a payload of bombs over a moderate AOE, but does so consistently and then pulls back to reload.
+1 / -0



AUrankAdminGoogleFrog
26 days ago
I agree with many of the units in this thread, although most of them are a bit UP because the alternative seems worse. GBrankSparkles has a decent list.

Units which are owled because I fear for a game in which they are more powerful:
  • Hacksaw
  • Chainsaw
  • Skuttle
  • Funnelweb
  • Badger
  • Archer
  • Venom
  • Racketeer
  • Cyclops
It is easy to destroy the role of air by making AA a little too powerful, and I would much rather have air be useful throughout the majority of games. Skuttle, Funnelweb, Badger and Racketeer can make games fairly uninteractive. Cyclop and Archer are in the bad books due to recent history. I'd also like Minotaur to have use cases. Venom is finnicky to use and play against, I'd rather redesign its weapon before buffing it.

Units which I think are just niche or undervalued:
  • Knight - Enough Knights is a win condition, especially with cloaker.
  • Sling - Make 2 or 3 and then stop, they win light-defense wars.
  • Limpet - It doesn't damage allies. Imagine if your opponents entire army was at 50% slow in every fight.
  • Blitz - Hard to use like Dagger, but can work.
  • Duck - Good against Glaive.
  • Harpy - Good as a riot that is easier to position. Harpy basically cannot be killed by raiders.
  • Dart - Cheap fast raiding is amazing.
  • Dirtbag - Cheap screening is useful.

Units which have persistently been a bit bad, but this fact doesn't really break the game:
  • Toad
  • Redback
  • Djinn
  • Raptor
  • Hunter
  • Detriment
  • Reef
  • Revenant

I think these units need to be powerful for design reasons or to help the role of their factory:
  • Nuke
  • Shockley
  • Thunderbird
  • Envoy
  • Constable

Glaive, Roach, Claymore, Scorcher, Fencer, and Grizzly are worth watching.
+1 / -0

PTrankraaar
26 days ago
morphed commander builds that don't rely on either disintegrator or disruptor bomb
+3 / -0



EErankAdminAnarchid
26 days ago
(edited 26 days ago)

I think the disruptor cyclops was pretty powerful without being degenerate.
+3 / -0


GBrankdyth68
26 days ago
(edited 26 days ago)

Somewhat off topic Cyclops discussion:
[Spoiler]
+3 / -0

DErankAdminmojjj
26 days ago
AUrankAdminGoogleFrog does also not know Quake.
+0 / -0
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