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"If you think skirmishers(recluse) are so op then use them more"

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http://zero-k.info/Battles/Detail/749036
+0 / -0
4 years ago
http://zero-k.info/Battles/Detail/749054
+0 / -0
The first game is on a map full of steep cliffs. I would expect Reculse to be strong here.

In the second game your team didn't expand, didn't make a meaningful amount of AA, rushed a Scorpion by 8 minutes in a 4v4 on a tiny map, and (perhaps most relevantly) made bad units against Recluse until far too late instead of sniper/firewalker/pillager.

I think Recluse is at the strong end of the spectrum but I don't think either of these games particularly demonstrates that they are overpowered as such.
+0 / -0
4 years ago
when 90% of units on a map is recluse something's wrong
+0 / -1
4 years ago
cloak fields pwn recluse because the recluse health is so low.. cloak a few raiders and make cost easy. also recluse die to stingers kinda fast unless in big swarms. stinger is almost a soft counter
+0 / -0

4 years ago
I'd like to think anyone with a brain will mix a bit of riot cover in to protect from raider rush and to be honest I think Firewalkers are actually a bit overrated vs recluse. I don't think I've ever beaten a determined recluse push with firewalkers. They might stall the advance but the best recluse solution in jump fac is cloaked juggle (which has the benefit of generally eating crabs as well).

But yes, most things cloaked will chew them. Cloaked snitches are particularly delicious. If you can draw them into fairly open terrain, fencers eat them as well (and badgers might have merit in pushing them off their cliffs into fencers (or at least pushing them back). A conventional shield ball can stack racketeers (the price difference between 280m recluse and 350m racketeer isn't that big, especially when racketeer will also negate anything heavy in the spider ball as well). Gunship facswap offers nimbus clearance. Airswap offers phoenix. Spider has good AA of course, but if you can do enough damage on that first strike you can retake ground.

That said I've done some recluse vs raider Science (recluses vs various facs on Trojan Hills - a map that is strong for spiders but ought to be viable for most bots), and found a ball of (for example 10) unescorted recluses are likely to cook equal value of any raider with a larger hitbox than a glaive as they approach (especially bandits and ducks). Pyro vs recluse ball seemed to be about 50:50. Equal value of blitzes might prevail provided there isn't safe spider ground nearby (Kodas are likely to destroy themselves unless microed very well).

Anyway, I've just given three different archetypal strategies to counter skirmishers (outrange, cloaked advance, airswap) on top of raiders (which do work in low density situations, likewise stingers at key points). Do we really need more options?

As AUrankAdminAquanim says, facing overwhelming recluse balls is not a cause of failure but a symptom of it. For that recluse ball to grow to battlefield dominating size means you've failed to deal with the threat a long time up to that point.

10 recluses are almost as costly as a scorpion. A single scorpion used right can end a game. It's really no surprise that similar value of Recluses used as intended should be decisive as well.
+3 / -0
snoke
4 years ago
quote:

when 90% of units on a map is recluse something's wrong

get 1 riot, spam skirmish on repeat until theyre countered is common, at least for me
+0 / -0
4 years ago
Spiders realy love Stingers ;) Exept 4 Crab.
+0 / -0

4 years ago
There's nothing like 3 snitches and an iris for eating up a recluse ball
+0 / -0
snoke
4 years ago
i mean skirmishers are supposed to hurt much but therefor are vulnerable (raiders, snitches etc).
i like them cause they hurt, but i dont think theyre too op
+0 / -0

4 years ago
for a big recluse-ball you need more then 1 firewalker. the moment you have enough to basically 1hit them, you have a hard counter as you threaten to kill the whole blob at once. You need to think of the different scaling.
rogues, buoy and recluse scale better then moderator and ronin because they can shoot over each other.
+1 / -0


4 years ago
If Recluse then

Cloaky: Sniper
Spider: more Recluse
Shieldbots: cloaked roach/your fucked
Light Veh: Wolverine
Tank: Pillager/ MORE REAPERS
Amph: Grizzle/ your fucked
Jump: placeholder/Firewalk
+0 / -0
quote:
Spider: more Recluse

Acuelly is crab

quote:
Light Veh: Wolverine

Modern name is badger, but acuelly is facswitch to thunderbird. Because domi can't counter crab anymore, and he'll switch to crab with impunity if you make it look like you're countering him.
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