Loading...
  OR  Zero-K Name:    Password:   

Widgets vs Cheating

196 posts, 3827 views
Post comment
Filter:    Player:  
Page of 10 (196 records)
sort
Lynx
4 months ago
To prevent derailing my thread about improving, I thought I would ask this in a separate thread.

The following widget tips were suggested in that thread in a helpful post by @Kurosei:

quote:

get all the widgetery, mainly u want ;
all of terves (prefires, sweepers,targeting ais, burrowbomb attack, juggler ai , newton ai, flea cloack spotter, caretaker ai, jump dodge bombs, scorpion dante ulti auto defence, separate waypoints for bombs)
avoidance ai for scythes and widows,
artillery counter battery /marking,
ecohelper,
esainanes icons are quite good but performance hungry and u will get a headchace in large teams,
damage flicker,
comeplted units notifier,
the lotus script ideally slowed down to actually do something


Is there a danger that Zero-K widgets afford the possibility of the sort of advantage that in other games would be classified as cheating? If so, would there theoretically be a way to prevent such cheating?
+3 / -0

4 months ago
Most evil cheating is autojump form skuttle. It's unfair against all skuttle users and skuttle itself.
But yes some widgets gives advantages amd theoreticaly its some sort of cheating vs player who don't use them. In large clustergames its doens't make large difference if one player uses some widgets but it may be diffrenet in 1 vs 1 or small teams. Devs never sriously adreesed this as problem at least i never saw that. Only few players complained about that. So widgets is not cheating but game feature at this moment. SOme widgets can be used to exploit another game features like multiple jumping lobster (who is removed now as i understand).
And yes there is solution - game disables all widgets who isn't in approved widget list. However such move could seems unfair for players who think that widgets ins't cheating but legal game feature.
+2 / -0
I'm of the opinion (which isn't shared by all zk players) that any widgets that give an advantage and are not default plart of the game for all players, are a form of cheating.
+16 / -3
4 months ago
Imo there should be an option in autohost lobbies and in custom made lobbies to disable widgets for all players. I also don't think players in matchmaking should be able to use their widgets to get an advantage too.
+3 / -0


4 months ago
As I've said in the last few threads, as long as widgets are publicly available (and are merged in as optional widgets after development is complete) I see no problem with them.
They mostly make things a lot less frustrating.

GBrankPRO_rANDY: So AUrankAdminGoogleFrog's terraform hotkey widget is cheating?
It's not got any hotkey set by default.
+4 / -0

4 months ago
The ability to automate as much as you wish is what makes Zero-K special for me. Otherwise I'd go and play any of the other UI limited games. The nicer UI with more built-in automation was also a reason for me to stick to ZK after coming from BA. I hope some of the widgets listed will make their way into the game eventually.

Any other game considers Bots as cheating, while I see it more as an art form. These discussions and previous comments from GoogleFrog do worry me that ZK might go down that route at some point.

Bots will become better than some players as time progresses. Already now Circuit AI would outperform more than half of the competitive 1v1 ladder. That is no reason to ban automation or stop us from having fun. It is up to the player to choose his level of automation and the control he wants to retain. If your Matchmaker opponent decides to use some AI to boost his skills the Matchmaker should take ratings into account to keep the games balanced. If you don't want to play against robots, just look at the top Starcraft players, their playing is much more robotic than Godde in ZK with all its automation tools.

As to keeping widgets private I don't really believe that to be an issue. Widgets have always been shared at some point and I haven't seen something that couldn't be replicated. It could still be improved though, it would be nice to have a list of widgets somewhere.
+15 / -0
Lynx
4 months ago
From reading the above it seems to me that Zero-K should only allow a set of pre-authorised widgets. Would that be technically possible or would there be workarounds? Seems crazy that players could secure an advantage over others by only enabling a widget. Just like typing in a cheat code.
+1 / -0


4 months ago
quote:
GBrankPRO_rANDY: So AUrankAdminGoogleFrog's terraform hotkey widget is cheating?
It's not got any hotkey set by default.

Its not a widget I'm familiar with, but from what you've told me I would say no. If everyone has it by default as is the case here then I wouldn't consider it cheating. It sounds like this is an option to be chosen/bound in the settings, such as scroll speed or how big your mini-map is.

quote:
The ability to automate as much as you wish is what makes Zero-K special for me. Otherwise I'd go and play any of the other UI limited games. The nicer UI with more built-in automation was also a reason for me to stick to ZK after coming from BA. I hope some of the widgets listed will make their way into the game eventually.

I think this shows the difference of opinion between a programmer/developer vs someone who is just a player, and what interests them and the reasons they come to play ZK.
+2 / -0
quote:
From reading the above it seems to me that Zero-K should only allow a set of pre-authorised widgets. Would that be technically possible or would there be workarounds? Seems crazy that players could secure an advantage over others by only enabling a widget. Just like typing in a cheat code.


That's the opposite of what I wanted to say. I think widget development should be encouraged as much as game development. I'd even say widget development is game development. Since widgets are what allows ZK to be so fluid and intuitive to play.

As such I'm completely open to players using them to gain an advantage. We can still ban the players if they use widgets inappropriately, e.g. to disrupt other players with lags, chat or making the game otherwise unplayable.

This is also not trying to tell you what rules to use for determining the top players. Tournaments can always use their own set of rules.

GBrankPRO_rANDY
Besides the part on how to go about new developments, wouldn't you agree that ZK's open widget policy has allowed for the game to make its own niche in the first place? Would ZK be worth playing over other games if it had all automation disabled and was limited to point commands?

All of this might very well be different if ZK was bigger. As it is we can only offer one ladder for everyone to play competitively, try new strategies and devs to test new developments.
+10 / -0

4 months ago
It does give an advantage to those who use them so I'd think either:

i) Ban them.
ii) Add a repo / download widget feature in lobby to make them more accessible for everyone. (My preference)
+3 / -0


4 months ago
I agree that these widgets are not very accessible
+7 / -0

4 months ago
My take is that they're useful in development terms and a lot of people enjoy them - both healthy things. That said, I won't use them unless they're baked in. I want to be on equal footing with my opponent at all costs.

My angle is that casual should allow widgets, and ranked play should not. If that would be bad for widget users who enjoy ranked play, we really need to address the different ladders we support. Vanilla ranked, widget enabled ranked, casual 1v1, teams, ffa etc. A lot of work.

Since we can't have the above without either a divide or lots of work, what temporary options are there? I've said one before: Widget disclosure, so that at least if you get taken by surprise and stomped by something a widget has done, you have recourse and understanding as to why it happened.

Currently I take issue with artillery revealing widgets, autojump widgets, and have some reservations about prefire / cloaked unit avoidance widgets. These are definitely advantageous to have.
+5 / -0


4 months ago
quote:
Besides the part on how to go about new developments, wouldn't you agree that ZK's open widget policy has allowed for the game to make its own niche in the first place? Would ZK be worth playing over other games if it had all automation disabled and was limited to point commands?


I agree it has fed improvements, but I wouldn't use the ladder labelled "Competitive" as a proving ground for all of these widgets, I think they should be tested in private games or purpose made environments and submitted for general approval.
+5 / -0

4 months ago
I actually have no problem with Widgets in general, as they usually reduce unnecessary micro.
This helps the game in general to give more time to think about a strategy and how to approach engagements on multiple fronts at the same time.

Will widgets get to a point where players with widgets have an unfair advantage?
Yes, eventually widgets will change the game and I am excited to see how things will develop in the future.

Should widgets be banned from competitive games?
I cant predict the future but I think most widgets will be ok to have as their impact is either minor or will be implemented into the base game, because they bring changes to improve the overall gameplay.
quote:
I think they should be tested in private games or purpose made environments and submitted for general approval.

Basically what I would do with widgets which do potentially break the game, see how far it goes and if it is acceptable to have it.

Does a player with widget X cheat because I didnt have the chance to use it?
I think (if we ever get to this point) that e.g. tournaments should be allowed to ban widgets if the majority of the players are for it. E.g. matchmaker could only be played if you have widgets of an approved list or your opponent allows the use of additional widgets. I think casual should be allowed to get "widgetfied" to hell.
+2 / -0
4 months ago
Automation moves the game away from micro and towards macro strategizing, which is a good thing to me. But, I suppose a bad thing for players who feel like micro skills are a valuable part of the game.

That being said, I feel its important to keep any particularly advantageous widgets widely accessible and available. Players shouldn't feel like they have to learn to code to be competitive.
+3 / -0
Lynx
quote:
From reading the above it seems to me that Zero-K should only allow a set of pre-authorised widgets. Would that be technically possible or would there be workarounds? Seems crazy that players could secure an advantage over others by only enabling a widget. Just like typing in a cheat code.


CHrankAdminDeinFreund I was referring to the overall discussion above.

I think widgets need to be limited to a pre-authorised set that relate to interface options rather than provide ai-based assistance. Just like using an aim-bot in an FPS, I do not see why enabling bot-like assistance that affords an advantage over those not using the option does anything other than spoil an otherwise level playing field.

At least doing so for rated games would appear to make sense.

So at the moment can anyone code their own widgets / hacks, and does the server know that they are using their own hacks? Otherwise does the server know what widgets are enabled or disabled?
+3 / -5
4 months ago
Unit auto-fight behavior is AI-based assistance though, and I don't think anyone wants that to go away.
+2 / -0


4 months ago
I think some people attach social status to having high ranking and care a great deal about this*. For them they perceive players gaining higher social status than they deserve via "artificial" means.

Others just want to have fun, balanced games and only care if their opponents widgets/skills makes the game less fun or more annoying.

* I personally think this attitude is toxic nonsense and would love to see it stamped out. It can also cause ladder anxiety and stress.
+1 / -0
[Spoiler]
[Spoiler]
[Spoiler]

my point is i dont want to be your testing dummy, i dont mind actually but i dont want it to taken for granted.
also while we are at it why cant all testers/labrats have standardized toys ? it would certainly help with the hard to swallow pill
+0 / -0
quote:


Digging up nonfuctional code for a AI I was working on from 2016 really isn't conductive to any point you are attempting to make. Quit the scare mongering crap and actually put forth some actual examples of destructive widgets.
+0 / -0
Page of 10 (196 records)