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Future detriment refinement

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New detri is pretty good, but very costly at 24k and very risky donating this metal to enemy
I think at least the following should be done:

1. make it smooth ground as it moves his legs and puts them on the ground
right now it gets stuck even on small hills which does not make any sense

2. slight movement speed increase, +10-20% it's very-very slow right now
the motivation is not to make it run away faster but a bit faster to walk across the field

3. replace pew-pew AA with a decent flak gun
"previous-design" AA is really-really weak
A bit better AA would not make it over-powered but protects a very valuable strider(game deciding) a little bit better, nothing insane

4. Give it a bigger LOS to act as armored eyes and support ally units

ordered from the most important to least, 1st is an absolute must have imo

cc AUrankAdminGoogleFrog
+5 / -1


19 days ago
I think detriment's health loss should be limited to 100 hp per second, if it takes more damage in that second everything else should be blocked

I am not being sarcastic here honestly
+2 / -1
19 days ago
Detriment being super expensive makes it compete with super weapons, which is a hard gamble to win. The price increase makes that worse.

That being said, I haven't seen it in action yet.
+1 / -0


19 days ago
But gotta say, amazing job on new detriment really reshapes zk late game in better side :)
+3 / -0

19 days ago
Its way more interesting than the old one, anyway. Nice job.
+2 / -0

19 days ago
EErankAdminAnarchid does that include your lazer?
+0 / -0
There is also a thought that at this hefty cost of 24k and astonishing feeding risk, power level of the detriment(in his local area of influence) should be directly comparable to those of DRP, not necessary in the fire power sense but as unit power in general
I also love how slow detriment is - it's kinda defining feature, it should stay this way but be a tiny-tiny bit more mobile on the battle field

For example if speed stays as painfully slow as it is right now HP/Healing speed could use a buff
Right now healing detriment is a huge issue in terms of resource sink and what is worse the healing con blob gets demolished by enemy arty and retreating detriment to safe area is a huge issue because of how slow it is(getting back is an issue too and game moves while u repair, and metal -should work-)
Teleporting could be possible but I bet it takes ages as well(teleport time is cost/weight based?)

In general super weapons don't have a lot of detriment problems(metal donation risks, healing requirements) and they reach almost whole map in an instant but they cost on the same order of magnitude...
To compensate detriment should wreck comparable to super weapons havoc in his local area of influence, than it would be fair balance for this price level of 24k

Key is to make it counterable, right now main counters are: artillery, clever ultimatums, mass gunships, and super weapons.

---

More over we should not be afraid to experiment with late game, it's always possible to roll-back and 1v1 is never influenced by those anyway.
I would really-really love someone to make incremental changes to this unit and see how it plays out and how it changes clusterfluff meta-game, would be even willing to donate for this cause :)

tl;dr; at the price level of 24k detri should wreck absolute havoc comparable to DRP and be deciding *in it's local area of influence*. I.e. it's a mobile super weapon, slow as hell with -limited range- but -wrecking everything and anything- in its path -with a set of counters- unlike most real super weapons when properly built
an alternative could be to tone down detriment cost, but then... it's probably not the detriment we think about ^_^
+1 / -0

19 days ago
I'd like to see more games decided by detriments, fewer by superweapons. Discos and all that reach out and destroy everything, and they do it rather joylessly, despite the colors. IMO the superweapons should eat power while in operation, so that ripping out the supporting economy is a valid way to silence them.
+6 / -0
19 days ago
All of the big stuff should require grid connections. I guess someone might say they all have huge ranges and tend to be built way in the back so it doesn't matter, but that is wrong.

I once saw someone build a Bertha in one of the small islands to the side in Small Supreme Battlefield. Off course, they had no grid connection there. Its rather silly that something like a Bertha can be built in a remote outpost, but Cerberus or Doomsday can't.

If I recall correctly, Starlight can kill a Detriment very fast. Apart from competing disfavorably with superweapons, Detriment also has the problem of being easily killed by them. If you built a detri and your opponent is building a superweapon, better get that giant metal ass moving, because the moment they finish your detri is dead.

Again, I imagine the jump jets will make detri a lot better at avoiding that scenario, but we will see.
+1 / -0

19 days ago
I will point out that being mobile, cloakable, etc. is a REALLY big difference between Detriment and DRP. It doesn't necessarily entirely compensate for Detriment having to get much closer than DRP to get stuff done, but it is a non-negligible factor to take into account.
+1 / -0
19 days ago
Being mobile or cloak-able isn't an advantage if you're competing against something that can hit everywhere. I guess it makes assassination harder, but then having to waltz into the enemy base makes assassination much easier.

I think the only way detriment can compete is by getting finished first because its cheaper.
+0 / -0


19 days ago
quote:
I will point out that being mobile, cloakable, etc. is a REALLY big difference between Detriment and DRP. It doesn't necessarily entirely compensate for Detriment having to get much closer than DRP to get stuff done, but it is a non-negligible factor to take into account.

I could suggest to negate this disadvantage by marking an approximate(with some kind of pulsing circle) super weapon(only enabled starlight/meteor/DRP and fully built detriment) location on a minimap regarding of it's LOS/Cloak state.
After this we could return and further buff detriment stats
+1 / -0



19 days ago
quote:
1. make it smooth ground as it moves his legs and puts them on the ground
right now it gets stuck even on small hills which does not make any sense

An explosion on its feet when it walks was in the PR at one point. I expressed misgivings and it did not make it into the final version.
  • Explosions are heard globally, removing the stealth advantage of Det compared to other superweapons.
  • Enemy units are pretty good at avoiding melee with Det, so it seems like explosion damage would mostly just annoy allies.
  • Explosions decloak, reducing the utility of Det.
  • Walk animations are generally not written well enough to tie game mechanics to. In the case of Det, I was able to get it into a state where it would stamp its foot rapidly in place. There is no point exploiting walk animations like this in normal games because they don't do anything.
  • The explosion cratered instead of smoothing, so I didn't get to test that.
  • There wasn't a way to make Det stamp in place. This would make toppling a wall with Det quite finicky.

Most of these issues seem fixable with a state toggle, which I suppose would be fine for such an expensive unit. The toggle could make Det move slower, make smoothing explosions around its feed (not sure if it should deal damage too) and make Det stamp in place when not moving. It should have a forceful stampy walk animation when in stamp mode.

The missile had the smoothing role, but people in the various threads seemed to want something cooler than a smoothing missile. I thought having the missile fly around and looking like it was doing things was fairly cool. The shoulder cannon looked like it could be deployed in a direct fire mode, so now we have that.

quote:
2. slight movement speed increase, +10-20% it's very-very slow right now
the motivation is not to make it run away faster but a bit faster to walk across the field

I think moving slowly is an important aspect of Det. A big consideration with Det is being appropriately cool and ponderous rather than balanaced. On the balance side I think it is good to have it be very powerful locally as it distinguishes it from other superweapons and subsuperweapons.

I think correct Det usage involves using a Djinn or Herc to transport it instead of wasting a full minute or two from the time it is done to the time it is used. Transporting it back to repair would be good too. Lobster exists.

quote:
3. replace pew-pew AA with a decent flak gun
"previous-design" AA is really-really weak

I think the guns look tiny enough to be the pew lasers, and the AA exists more to be cool than to be effective.

quote:
4. Give it a bigger LOS to act as armored eyes and support ally units

I think 900 is enough. This is far above the standard maximum of 660.

I've seen this Det used twice since the update and it failed both times. That said, it failed by being sent alone deep into the strongest part of the enemy front and both were killed by Ultimatum. This seems like a poor use of Det and I don't think it should be so powerful that using it really poorly is an automatic victory. In these games the Det could have been used more conservatively to turn around any front. A Det with a bit of army and a place to be repaired seems extremely hard to stop. It is possible to safely use the jump offensively if chaff is sent there first.

I think the cost is good. I'm expecting a well-used det to win a front in several minutes, which seems worth saving 12k on. It is also less vulnerable to snipes with things like tacnukes and can deal a bit more damage locally. If Det is too easily countered by Ulti then perhaps Ulti needs a nerf, but I will note that I saw people make and waste a lot of metal on Ulti when they scouted a Det, so the Det didn't "really" cost so much.
+2 / -0
quote:
An explosion on its feet when it walks was in the PR at one point. I expressed misgivings and it did not make it into the final version.

Why does it have to be an explosion, can't we just apply instantaneous smooth terraform(on the event foot animation hits the ground) with a certain strength?
We could even try something simpler - apply smooth terraform with a certain radius && strength once every 60 sim frames when detri is on the move(having an active move order)

Main issue I see right now is detri getting stuck even on small hills, sometimes it's so bad you literally wish to use the jump...
I bet walking over dirtbag minefield would be a nightmare, do we really want detri to be countered by dirtbag spam?

P.S. I don't like toggle idea for ground smoothing, it complicates something that should not be complicated and simply should be baseline unit behavior

quote:
I think moving slowly is an important aspect of Det. A big consideration with Det is being appropriately cool and ponderous rather than balanaced. On the balance side I think it is good to have it be very powerful locally as it distinguishes it from other superweapons and subsuperweapons.

Totally agree, it should stay and feel slow. But we could still try a small bump in movement speed to see how it plays when it's just a tiny bit faster

Herc transport/teleport may need a refinement, afaik it's very-very slow when transporting detriment to a point it's barely faster than walking... May be wrong here tho, haven't tested in a while
+0 / -0
Yeah... I still think adding a substantial energy requirement to using the superweapons would would be the most interesting way to address balance with detriments. Any non-madman would have a lot of energy on hand, but if the superweapon eats that, it could force some interesting choices (economic and defensive). You could even make the superweapons scalable with energy input ... kind of overdriven. :) Cmon you know you want to do that.
+0 / -0
Some example of detriment use:

https://zero-k.info/Battles/Detail/989971
here it proved to be excellent support to front, but game was already won at that point(kinda) so it just sealed off the deal
the ending is absolutely hilarious! must watch

this game also reveals an issue - my detriment got stuck inside a picket :(
had to selfd a picket, colbox issue
+0 / -0
btw AUrankAdminGoogleFrog today had a game where detriment was EMPed by silo
this is on the point of how painfully slow it is... :(
could use slight bump on movement speed

replay: https://zero-k.info/Battles/Detail/990043
p.s. speedmetalish map, short game

detriment retreat path is way too easy to predict because of how slow it moves
+0 / -0
18 days ago
I think there was 4 detri in this game! http://zero-k.info/Battles/Detail/990119

Gets shut down HARD by bertha on big maps.

Would like the Dgun to do a bit more damage so it can punch through shields (maybe it should go through them). I don't think the projectiles should just get removed when it gets to max range as well.

+2 / -0
Yea, same feeling. Equal cost in berthas just obliterates detriment completely and starts to help way-way earlier than detri ever could without risking metal donation :(
+0 / -0
18 days ago
I was thinking that Detriment could have a shield. Makes sense for the ultimate assault walker, whom by definition will smash right against the enemy's frontline.

If the shield was really large, it would let Detriment become resistant against attrition by long-range artillery, while still being vulnerable to close-range attacks from units under the shield. Detriment could also support an army under the shield.

Detriment could even have much lower health for the sake of this shield, say 50k or 60k instead of 80k.
+2 / -0
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