Loading...
  OR  Zero-K Name:    Password:   

Jack drops are op

42 posts, 1313 views
Post comment
Filter:    Player:  
Page of 3 (42 records)
sort

14 days ago
jack drops are still op the small speed nerf they got did nonething can we just make them heavy transport all ready?
+2 / -5

14 days ago
600
+1 / -2
14 days ago
No nerfs needed. That's just because I soundly whupped you with the humble jack.
+1 / -5
jack by them selfs are fine but when you can have them anywhere on the map under 1 min with barley any help it is so annoying you basic have to start off with a stun or build a faraday just in case they have jack drops coming.

also thoes where good jack drops
+4 / -0
14 days ago
They just need 50% less range so raiders easily can kite them. Also, they should be unable to tank missiles aimed at the charons.
+0 / -0


14 days ago
Raiders already utterly wreck jacks... 4 glaives kills jacks in moments.
+1 / -1
If the jack has its jump, then 4 glaives do no such thing (unless you mean 15secs or so assuming they are in position and the jack has no jump available). 15 seconds is hardly moments when a jack is pounding away. Further, if the glaive player makes 1 minor micro error, then the jack will 1 shot a glaive. Guess how much damage a jack can do in 15 secs -- 4500 - that's enough to kill all factories, except the ship factory. If 1 of those glaives ventures too close and dies to a jack, then that damage is even higher.

Add the mobility of a charon and a jack becomes a better raider than 700 metal worth of any actual raider. Raiders also must survive across the entire map (and usually be micro'd) to raid. A charon can easily be given waypoints, a drop command, and return waypoints, in queue to save all the micro time plus probably save the charon too.

The principal reason jack drops work is the low cost in relation to hitpoints, mobility, and dps. Its short range is meaningless against economic structures that cannot move. Its 6k hitpoints mean that without a 9 gnat swarm handy to counter them, an early jack will easily make more than its cost in a raid. There is also the stupid mechanic that jacks can actually hit gnats that are trying to stun it - jacks need not even jump to do so. A 9 gnat swarm will almost always lose gnats against even a single jack because jacks 2 shot gnats. Not to mention that a 9 gnat swarm costs 810 metal v. the 700 metal of a jack + charon.

The other option is to shoot down the charon with swifts, but you'd better have an air player with 4-5 swifts ready + that player must react in about 1-2 seconds or the jack will still make cost. The charon will die too, but that's hardly a consolation to the player that lost a factory.

I know jacks are usually only a problem in lobpot, where the 2nd factory for gunships easily is viable, but that makes it no less toxic. Depending on how early it's done, a jack drop factory kill can easily win an entire lane. In lopbot, I've seen it done inside ~1.5mins (the actual match is in another thread).

There is NO cheap easy counter to a jack drop like the lotus is to most early raids.
+2 / -0

14 days ago
A couple of gnats will them in their tracks!
+1 / -1
14 days ago
Idea: make jack a morth from storage. BOOM two problems solved ;)
+0 / -0
14 days ago
Well, we need things that can be dangerous, or every game will end with Discos.
I feel jack droping still dangerous but more easily handlable.

We are speaking Jacks, wich are heavy units that let lot of Metal when killed and can't escape easily when under fire, after all. A dropped Jack is a dead jack pretty quickly most often than not, and is never assured to destroy things cost-effectively, even counting the loss of productivity, particularly if you count the 40% salvageable metal of at least a part of what it destroyed.

It's not more OP than that Juggle that land near my poor innocent crab, and throw it in its own side at Cerberus range so hard that it break at pebble level. " eating my keyboard "
+1 / -1


14 days ago
quote:
Guess how much damage a jack can do in 15 secs -- 4500 - that's enough to kill all factories, except the ship factory.

Which means the Jack player has lost 600 metal, while the other team has lost 700 metal, but gained 240+280=520 metal in reclaim and have thus come out way ahead here.
+2 / -1
quote:
Raiders already utterly wreck jacks... 4 glaives kills jacks in moments.

Long agonizing moments during which they either try to be careful and lose some dps and prolong those moments, or take a risk, get too close to jack, and end up pile drived in one hit, which further extends the long moment.

TL:DR yeah i think jack has a bit too much range on its instant hit perfect accuracy weapon; more than it should be proper for an assault to have.

quote:
Which means the Jack player has lost 600 metal, while the other team has lost 700 metal, but gained 240+280=520 metal in reclaim and have thus come out way ahead here.

Let's be honest, the first target is almost never a factory. It's a commander, which bereaves you not only of a 1200-ish metal unit, but also of +4 income per second, irreversibly. IME factories are usually taken only when they are so poorly defended as to be free.

---

That said, i don't think jack drops are OP. Have you seen godde do reaver drops? The difference is nil. Competent use of transports is powerful and more people should do it.
+3 / -0
14 days ago
I agree, transports are underrated. Maybe storage should morph into transports then.
+2 / -0
quote:
A couple of gnats will them in their tracks!


It takes 9 to do it within 1 second - if you get all 9 to hit at once. If it takes 2 seconds, then 1 gnat will die.
+1 / -0
14 days ago
quote:
That said, i don't think jack drops are OP. Have you seen godde do reaver drops? The difference is nil. Competent use of transports is powerful and more people should do it.


Reaver drops are so easy to handle with 1 raven and 1 shot from anything else. Admittedly reavers are a pain, but they are simply not in the same league as jacks. More to the point, reavers do not have 6k hitpoints or jump capability
+1 / -0
13 days ago
I think sometimes when a unit is "op" it's because there are no other units like it. I'm talking about like for example Grizzly and Knight. They feel way less tanky than jack. What I mean is that in the current "meta" we're not used to handling tanky units because so many units are glass cannons and that is what we defend against. We have Lance, we have Impaler, we have roach walking bombs, we have cloaky sniper... most facs have glass cannons. Maybe the problem is not jack but the lack of tankiness in general, that is my point.

This was different some years ago. Balance patches slowly changed the game to where it is now.

I think there has been slow move towards glass cannon units, partly because there is a will from mods to make the game last less long and break porcy stalemates. Personally, I think this ok. I admit if there is one thing mods do well and that is balancing the game. But unfortunately I think we now as a community forgot a bit that tanking is actually a thing in strategy games.

I think jack is very fun to play, and fun to counter too if you know what you are doing.

"Scouted" jacks feel easy, "surprise" jacks feels hard to counter. This is how it should be. That is why scouting is valuable.

I think if you feel jack is op, try scouting more.

And I think instead of nerfing jack please mods see if we can have more tanky units as it is a fun mechanic to play (in moderation).

+5 / -1
13 days ago
What annoys me with Jack drops is that they can jump immediately after the drop. This makes it hard to escape even with a recon comm as they can drop next to you and if you jump they jump and keep hitting you. If dropped jacks would need to reload their jump would make them a bit less effective (also if transports get killed and jacks are not perfectly placed, it will give you a bit more time to react).
+3 / -0

11 days ago
http://zero-k.info/Battles/Detail/1239661 can we just make jacks need a heavy transport all ready
+1 / -0
USrankZow
11 days ago
quote:
http://zero-k.info/Battles/Detail/1239661 can we just make jacks need a heavy transport all ready


tbh an Fields of Isis game that lasts 7 min instead of 70 is probably a good thing in my book
+9 / -1

10 days ago
they still op
+0 / -0
Page of 3 (42 records)