In this match for example: B1863337 my team created 4 paladins for a metal cost equal to 40,000, while the opposing team built a zenith for a metal cost equal to 38,000, with the difference however that the zenith has a range equal to 8,800 elmo while the paladin 950. Clearly my team lost in a few minutes and destroyed our base. In short, what's the point of making paladins when you can easily make a zenith inside a terraformed bunker far from the battlefield? Maybe it's time to make those who want to use this weapon take a little more risk (like other superweapons), halving its range, or increasing its metal cost even more.
+2 / -0
|
The risk is having 40k less army value on the field, during construction, if the team cant manage to do anything with that advantage then well... either the game was already over anyway and just used a game ender as intended, or the paladin team messed up in someway.
+6 / -0
|
paladins are very strong units on smaller maps
+0 / -0
|
I played shieldbots in that match, trying to hold the southwest corner for team zen. At some point there were 3 paladins and a scylla(?) sniping at us, rendering my units pretty much useless. I have yet to watch the replay, but I think the 3 paladins could have crushed us with a little support.
+1 / -0
|
I disagree    Skel. Even the team that made paladins took metal away from the rest of the team. That's not the answer. The problem is that when two teams are entrenched, investing in Paladin is not actually convenient. It is much more convenient to build a unit that is difficult to attack, in the rear. Many matches have ended thanks to the Paladin. But it can be attacked in many ways. Zenith etc. no
+0 / -0
|
The odin swarm coming in to destroy that juicy undefended zenith... I have seen people amass up to 2 dozen odins to hit super weapons
+0 / -1
|
Paladin has infinite range with certain constraints in space and time, can cloak and dodge. Also if income is linear you had an average of two Paladins while the other team has no Zenith. I wonder if one thing that happens a lot is: Team A is ahead Team A decides to build Zenith and Team B decides to build Paladin Team B fields Paladin, things start to improve Team B fields another Paladin, looking good Team B fields another Paladin, surely we are going to win somehow? Team A finishes Zenith. Team A wins. It sounds like a frustrating scenario but I'm not sure how to improve on it (in lobpot).
+4 / -0
|
quote:
what is the paladin unit for? |
From the wiki: quote:
The Paladin is a ranged support strider [...] |
Now, I am not really sure WHAT it is supposed to support, but I guess its assaults? Anyway, Paladin is a tanky lance with more damage, higher range and a lightning sidearm. It IS pretty bad at cracking dense defense-lines, mainly because it lacks sustained DPS. Units with such high HP have the upside of being able to take a lot of damage, then being repaired and used again, so they are meant to generate attrition.
+0 / -0
|
I suspect it wouldn't be too hard to write a widget that could make predictions about when a large project was under construction by the other team. The question is what would you do with that information?
+0 / -0
|
I agree with manero, investing into a paladin unless your front line is actively collapsing, doesn't seem like a particularly good choice for me atleast. Of course theres the counterpoint to that, when your front is collapsing, you can use the spare recourses into making a zenith as a last resort. Paladin doesn't seem like a great unit to break porc, since some defenses outrange it (afaik, if im wrong correct me). But, its a very exceptionally good unit for organized pushes, like mentioned earlier it. - It has good range - Somewhat good movement speed - Great damage, powerful lasers - Also great for rushes on certain maps - Great for its cost. The downsides are: - Can get overwhelmed easily from my knowledge - Doesn't do well with porc like mentioned earlier But yeah, nerfing certain aspects of game-ending weapons will increase game time, and well, make it more difficult to break stalemates. Also would be interesting to see any other superweapon get used more often than zenith. Since its like the go-to superweapon, since its not as expensive as Starlight, and not as bad as DRP. Also i don't want to derail the thread, but i would like to see DRP being buffed.
+1 / -0
|
Paladin is great at killing porc, the enemy artillery and most medium and heavy assaults. It can even destroy other antiheavy units like the Grizzly or the Cyclops and cooks other striders like scorpions and dantes. It isn't even vulnerable to raiders, because of it's high hp and it's large ranged stunner D gun that will easily stun groups of raiders and it's lightning cannons will easily one shot most raiders. It is a powerful solution to most team games stalemates, which are essentially large scale artillery (lance,emissary, impaler) wars, porc and assault units. A paladin as mentioned above is great at dealing with all of these. It's a lance without significant weaknesses. There is a high cost but it's very much worth it. It also has psychological effects, llike if the opponent sees the d gun of the paladin they will immediately get scared and start retreating. So in short, It is a scary assault strider capable of breaking stalemates, and a good unit in most team game scenarios. Superweapons are extremely risky and costly. Every metal spent on the superweapon is one that is not used for the main battle. it takes a long time to build and if the opponent has enough map control they can silo it. In an even game 4 paladins should have easily been able to crack through and win. I suspect it's because your opponents had such a high lead that they could afford to build a superweapon on the side without losing the front.
+2 / -0
|
use the best of both worlds first, invest in paladins and use them in the battlefield. when you have enough of them, reclaim them with tons of caretakers and make zenith
+1 / -0
|
Wouldn't that risk the front collapsing though? If you haven't got enough units to hold a front.
+1 / -0
|
if you are the only one producing units, i guess so. but even then, it'll be fun! kill or get killed
+0 / -0
|
quote:
It is a powerful solution to most team games stalemates, which are essentially large scale artillery (lance,emissary, impaler) wars, porc and assault units. A paladin as mentioned above is great at dealing with all of these. It's a lance without significant weaknesses. There is a high cost but it's very much worth it. |
Depends on the team-size, because in large pots I have seen many, MANY games with paladins not being able to push anything, usually because they fight something that is of equal cost or more... I think merlin is still better if you want to deal with statics. quote:
It isn't even vulnerable to raiders, because of it's high hp and it's large ranged stunner D gun that will easily stun groups of raiders and it's lightning cannons will easily one shot most raiders. |
Idk how many paladins I killed with glaives, probable something between 10 to 20 so far. Of course the cost needs to be somewhat comparable, 20 glaives wont cut it. 100 will do easily. The thing why this doesn`t happen usually is that paladins are normally screened and protected by other units. Don`t get me wrong, I think paladin is in a good state. quote:
The problem is that when two teams are entrenched, investing in Paladin is not actually convenient. It is much more convenient to build a unit that is difficult to attack, in the rear. |
When two teams are entrenched to the degree that is common in lobpots, virtually NO mobile unit is useful. Try silo, bertha or nuke instead.
+2 / -0
|
quote:
I suspect it wouldn't be too hard to write a widget that could make predictions about when a large project was under construction by the other team. The question is what would you do with that information? |
You can learn that yourself. You have to pay attention to how much metal your opponent(s) get on the field roughly, how much map they control, you sometimes can get a peek at their mexes and see their overdrive etc. If there is a somewhat sudden dip in what comes at you, it`s very safe to assume the enemy builds something big. For example, if you end up with 25% of the map on comet catcher but somehow manage to survive for 10 minutes without having 20 singus or a godly 400% attrition, you better make an anti. Or resign.
+1 / -0
|
quote:
my team created 4 paladins
|
That is the problem imo. They are great to hold or even push front. While at that point even detri might make sense, a proper super is probably superior. But that would require cooperation. (In Lobster Pot anyway..)
+0 / -0
|
quote:
investing into a paladin unless your front line is actively collapsing, doesn't seem like a particularly good choice for me atleast. |
I disagree with this a lot. If your front line is collapsing, Paladin will not save you. In my view the purpose of Paladin is to safely inflict attrition on the opposing team, and is probably at its best in a game that you are slightly winning; it is sometimes good in an even game also. If Paladin is getting to inflict a meaningful amount of attrition it was a good thing to build. If it's not getting to do that (because it is not safe to venture near enemy lines, or the other team is massively shielded) then it probably wasn't a good build.
+3 / -0
|
Paladin is the most unsatisfying unit this game has. It is shockingly uninspiring, its model is unfit for its weapon (where does that laser come from?), its special ability looks clumsy with the missiles going randomly around, and generally everything about it is ungainly and clumsy from game design to movement to art. (Except texturing. The texture work is top notch). I think its intended use should be "being removed".
+2 / -1
|
I'd like to expand the complaining to encompass striders in general, of which IMO only a minority are actually up to the ZK standard. Pally does function well at least. ------ I still think detri should become a peer to pally, the dynamic duo of attrition, and there should be also something about dante-sized that spams lasers at modest range. Then there should be something much more awe-inspiring at the top-end, almost unstoppable, no jumping, no transport, no lobbing.
+0 / -0
|
