I like the Redback - and it really helps having a unit that can finally make cost versus endless glaivespam - but it isn't very good. Large hitbox, notably fragile, and meh speed seems to result in 280m of premature death most the times I have employed them in any role but strictly defensive riot, and they dont really have any merit over warrior in this respect. It could be nice to get the vampirism feature up in here. I find that Recluse is inferior to rocko in practically all situations, being high weight and hugely fragile. It might be nice to give it a little more health. The hermit remains substandard. It might be cool to up its speed slightly and give it the weaving avoidance unit AI, since it has excellent turning.
+0 / -0
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I would like to see the redback turned into a raider to spiders can have a skrimisher counter other than recluses. quote:
I find that Recluse is inferior to rocko in practically all situations |
I have yet to see recluses killed by rockos. Their range allows them to pick off the rockos without being fired at and cloakies can only counter them with spiders if they have venom and/or redback support.
+1 / -0
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Redback kills everything it can reach.
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I think the core problem with spiders is how rocko interacts with the factory. If rocko was less tanky it would be easier to kill them with fleas if they got out of position. Currently they often survive long enough to retreat back to the safety of their own turrets, com, glaives, etc. Early glaives force out venom/redback. That combination is murderous to raiders, but as riots they get countered by rockos. Pooling up some rockos and pushing with them through the middle is often just a win button. I've witnessed this scenario unfolding in the majority of cloaky vs spider games I've seen lately. Recluse might also be partially to blame. It's fragile enough that defenders completely devastate it (unlike the tanky rocko). This allows the cloaky player on smaller maps to just push through with rocko + defender.
+3 / -0
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My approach to spiderfac is just to try and survive until i get a crabe, then slowly but steadily push the enemy with it. Redback is a great addition to the fac, and redback+venom groups are very efficient. They are fairly universal and can fight against most targets, although not very efficiently due to their speed and health. Raiding is an important part of earlygame though, and earlygame is really the most important part of any game, especially 1v1. The handicap you get by almost no raiding power is supposedly offset by the OP crabe. However, on large maps the loss of map control hits too hard, and on small maps you usually dont have time to build a crabe. As result, spider fac is not a good choice for 1v1 game, and in teamgames you usually rely on team support until you get your first crabe.
+0 / -0
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the OP crabbe is an undiscovered problem imo - once the spiderfac becomes valid, crabbe will get nerfed.
+1 / -0
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Crabe isint op. I can kill crabes whit my jumpy com duh...
+0 / -3
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quote:
I have yet to see recluses killed by rockos. Their range allows them to pick off the rockos without being fired at and cloakies can only counter them with spiders if they have venom and/or redback support. |
Recluse is probably one unit that can fight rockos in spiderfac, but it isn't stellar. Consider that you get three rockos for one recluse, with total hp, dps, alpha, speed and maneuverability favoring the rockos. Recluses can win the saturation war of course, but that's costly. In recent games where i faced rocko spam i found myself resorting to even more ridiculous counters each time, up to dante (and even that barely worked)
+1 / -0
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If spiders had a real raider I don't think there would be a problem with rockos vs spiders.
+0 / -0
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Recluse can fight rockos, but it dosn't counter them and isn't as useful and its hardccountered by sniper.
+0 / -0
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quote:
In recent games where i faced rocko spam i found myself resorting to even more ridiculous counters each time, up to dante (and even that barely worked) |
Wait, how did the aforementioned crabe not satisfy your anti-rocko needs? They absolutely murder rockos. The only situation when they are not viable is probably when you really, REALLY need something more mobile. But if your opponent has so much map control that they can attack you from multiple sides and dont care if you push with a crabe, then you are probably fucked anyway.
+0 / -0
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How do spiders do vs other skirmishers, especially rogues?
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imho, recluse inaccuracy creates a nasty balance problem - a deathball of recluses fighting a deathball of something else will have lots of hits, but a lone recluse fighting a lone enemy will miss incessantly. This approach might work for a super-low-weight unit but for an expensive thing like the Recluse it creates a fiddly balance-problem.
+0 / -0
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quote:
How do spiders do vs other skirmishers, especially rogues? |
Recluse: vs rogue = same as rocko, pretty much. Can kite it, but its not very cost-efficient vs moderator = moderator is useless and dies easily vs banisher = good only on hills with good micro, dies the moment banisher gets in range vs slasher = recluse loses because it has less dps and hp for its cost. Crabe: vs rogue = win vs moderator = total win vs banisher = gets hurt a bit, but win vs slasher = win
+0 / -0
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quote:
Wait, how did the aforementioned crabe not satisfy your anti-rocko needs? |
I wasn't spiders, and i needed the territory right now. So i used Conswarm Stingers.
+0 / -0
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These are my thoughts on spiders (not just recluse) vs other factories: Moderator and banisher will get killed or at least chased away by fleas. Spiders vs jumpies is interesting, since (puppies < )fleas < pyro's < venom/redback < moderator < fleas... Spiders vs tanks is seldom seen, and fleas will probably destroy tanks apart from koda and welder. Infiltrator is also very useful in this matchup. Spiders vs lveh will have a problem with domi's mostly, slashers get pwned by hermits, spiders can try to use infiltrators vs domi's and then use hermits to kill slashers maybe. It should be possible on a not too flat map. Spiders vs shieldbots: I think rogues could be easier to dodge with venoms(and maybe redbacks) than rocko's since their rockets fly higher , so small groups of rogues could be dealt with.
+0 / -0
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does anyone have a problem with a potential recluse HP buff?
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We could do a speed or range buff instead. It would keep the spiders squishy identity instead of generalizing it.
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Range buff? You'd have recluses out-ranging HLTs? Why not just cutting the cost? Recluse is one of the most expensive skirms in the game, and considering how much they need to deathball to be useful a cost-based-buff might help.
+1 / -0
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