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sea balance

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9 years ago
Hi
I tryed to play ships, after a long time not playing them, again.
I failed terrible vs. amphs.
Can someone show me a replay ships vs. amphs where the skill level is nearly the same and the ships won? I want to learn it.
From that what I did I would say ships are total UP now, but maybe it's my lack of seafights, that ships feel like that.
thx :)
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9 years ago
quote:
and the ships won


i recommend to switch to an alternate reality.
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Here's a replay: http://zero-k.info/Battles/Detail/297657
There was a bit of an Elo difference and balance is probably different on small maps, but nevertheless ships seem potent against amphs on maps like Blue Comet.

In that Cull game of yours you got raided unnecessarily and as a result got very far behind on eco. It was only a matter of time until exploit would overpower your forces regardless of any factory choice. It didn't help that you didn't seem to have a full understanding of what were the strong and weak points of your units which resulted in quite suboptimal play.
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9 years ago
Yes I know that my game was bad. Thats why I didn't post it here. ;)
I comletely underestimated exploit.
But if felt wrong. not because of bad play but because of light ships.
Thx for that replay I think I got the direction, how to play them, now. :)
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we also had that pw game on blue comet not long ago Multiplayer B293781 8 on Blue Comet v4

I felt like I learned a lot about sea meta from that, probably because nobody ever plays sea maps
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Cull is a very closed in map from the point of view of a ship. Amph and Hover sound like they should be better there, at least as a starting factory.
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9 years ago
Ship v Scallop is a bit odd, but from what I have been able to tell works out overall.


Snakes can snipe small numbers of Scallops, and support in mid-sized fights against them with proper hit and run timing.

Hunters are actually the counter against scallops, as scallops have very low DPS and are only a significant threat when balled. A comparable number of hunters will beat them very solidly.

Before regeneration and splash, a hunter can beat about 3 scallops one at a time. Including regeneration, its about 2. As numbers scale up, hunters gain an increasing advantage because of their higher speed and AoE.


The major factor to remember is that Scallops have truly terrible damage output in water.


Ducks lose to both well micro'd snakes and to hunters. They are honestly quite bad in direct combat against Ships in water, but are effective opportunists and can overwhelm unsuspecting enemies.

Boeys are, oddly enough, weak to units with crusader support (because after they bob up they are hit by a very bursty precise hit and they are unable to move to dodge). Typhoons guarding hunters will also work. Snakes can work in high numbers, but their high health and regeneration makes it to assassinate them quickly.

Archers are a bit zany, but are mostly just beaten by snakes. They have high regeneration but very low ability to deal sustained damage (because they go flying away). Mostly they are closer to a movement impediment than an immediate combat threat.


Anyway, that is what I have come to understand about the combat matchups of amph v ship (from ships perspective).

There will likely be tweaks in the coming days, but I expect this to remain mostly consistent.
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FIrankFFC
9 years ago
Amphs are useless in water
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9 years ago
I'd hardly call them useless, you have to remember have the big advantages of being underwater and being able to go on land

torp launcher is the only static defence that kills them which makes mixing with hovers a nice tactic

also in the bluecomet game you could see I was trading vs hunters extremely effectively with scallops because it's such a snowbally matchup where numbers is everything, there's quite a lot of micro involved with pooping out torpedo volleys too, which is always a good thing
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9 years ago
quote:
GBrank[Fx]Drone
torp launcher is the only static defence that kills them which makes mixing with hovers a nice tactic


Why? Hovers can be shot by torpedos too.
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9 years ago
Yeah, torpedos aren't supposed to be able to hit hovers but they do :D
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9 years ago
Torpedos are supposed to hit hovers.
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FIrankFFC
9 years ago
what about giving urchin sonic gun?
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9 years ago
quote:
what about giving urchin sonic gun?

Before sonicgun (I think), I once suggested giving LLT the ability to shoot into the water (basically making it the sonicgun with regard to targetting limits). This would make it able to shoot at all domains, which I think could be good for the basic turret.

Why:
1) the basic turret becomes immune to pregame RPS (currently Urchin can't hit gunships and LLT can't hit subs/amphs).
2) Urchin can then become higher weight - there is currently no mid/high weight anti-underwater turret (as Gauss isn't floating). Not sure whether that's actually needed (maybe to stop Grizzlies?), though. At worst we free a slot in the Defense tab.
3) If all continuous beamlasers get affected for consistency, Banshee would become underwater-capable (which I think would be good as Gunship has no underwater-capable units!)

Why not:
A) Comm Beamlaser has the same visual, but Coms shouldn't fight underwater and that breaks consistency.
B) Other non-cyan beamlasers would probably make sense to be affected too, which would unbalance stuff. For example Mace shooting into water would definitely be a balance change (though maybe then Claymore would not be needed?)
C) Lasers are spherical so depth (which is really hard to quickly tell) becomes a factor.

B) could be mitigated by only making it affect the cyan ones, but that loses 3).
3) could be brought back and A) mitigated by swapping Com Beamlaser and Banshee colours (which I think would be sensible anyway as Lotus DPS is closer to Banshee than Com beamlaser).

There are likely more reasons why not and the idea is probably not really a good one, but that's my 2 cents.
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9 years ago
By "sonic gun", do you mean something like this?
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9 years ago
PLrankAdminSprung

Mace hitting into water would be hard to balance because it's spherically targeted so its ability to outrange Ducks would depend on how deep the water is.
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9 years ago
Yep, see point C. While LLT can't really be changed because its weapon properties have long been established and are crucial for it to work (eg. to reliably kill fleas etc.), Mace could probably have its weapontype replaced by some cylinder-targeted one since sea is still being balanced.

The point about Gunship having no anti-underwater weapons at all is also something to consider. No candidate seems really good for the role, though (Banshee and Rapier look like the best bets, but one introduces consistency issues and the other already is super generalist).
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FIrankFFC
9 years ago
Banshee is useless.( give it slow )
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9 years ago
Banshee is a freaking raider, it's supposed to fight cons and eco..
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FIrankFFC
9 years ago
How many times you have seen somebody buil banshees recently?
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