| 1 |
There is one problem with the current sea - it is simply not fun to play with it. It has some really deep flaws that no amount of nerfing or bufiing can fix. These are:
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1 |
There is one problem with the current sea - it is simply not fun to play with it. It has some really deep flaws that no amount of nerfing or bufiing can fix. These are:
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| 2 |
1:Map incompatibility
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2 |
1:Map incompatibility
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| 3 |
2:Unit design
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3 |
2:Unit design
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| 4 |
3:More unit design
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4 |
3:More unit design
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| 5 |
4:Sea to land "interactions"
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5 |
4:Sea to land "interactions"
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| 6 |
5:The lack of the pluk (Lack of alternative or troll strategies)
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6 |
5:The lack of the pluk (Lack of alternative or troll strategies)
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| 7 |
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7 |
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| 8 |
[b]Map Incompatibility[/b]
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8 |
[b]Map Incompatibility[/b]
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| 9 |
I have classified types of sea into a few categories: wide sea, long sea, perimeter sea and troll sea.
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9 |
I have classified types of sea into a few categories: wide sea, long sea, perimeter sea and troll sea.
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| 10 |
Wide sea - huge, strategically important, has mexes, ability to go around things, sea player has ability to raid.
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10 |
Wide sea - huge, strategically important, has mexes, ability to go around things, sea player has ability to raid.
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| 11 |
Long sea - has engrained frontlines, strategically important, porc/heavy units are king, raiders are unusable.
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11 |
Long sea - has engrained frontlines, strategically important, porc/heavy units are king, raiders are unusable.
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| 12 |
Perimeter sea - not important, ships rarely used, hover and amph use it sometimes to be sneaky. Sea is pretty unused.
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12 |
Perimeter sea - not important, ships rarely used, hover and amph use it sometimes to be sneaky. Sea is pretty unused.
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| 13 |
Troll sea - Con trolling on Ravaged. Fun and awesome.
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13 |
Troll sea - Con trolling on Ravaged. Fun and awesome.
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| 14 |
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14 |
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| 15 |
From now on, I will talk about long sea. Note that team games will make maps generally regarded as wide sea into long sea by filling the empty space. The problem is simple: long sea is not fun. Also, some design decisions turn artificially wide into long sea - such as the Urchin's power, and the range of the Siren and all of the ships.
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15 |
From now on, I will talk about long sea. Note that team games will make maps generally regarded as wide sea into long sea by filling the empty space. The problem is simple: long sea is not fun. Also, some design decisions turn artificially wide into long sea - such as the Urchin's power, and the range of the Siren and all of the ships.
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| 16 |
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16 |
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| 17 |
[b]Unit Design[/b]
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17 |
[b]Unit Design[/b]
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| 18 |
I don't know where to begin here. One problem is the non-viability of hovers and amphs on sea maps. Amph performs better on ground then on sea - the only units which can fire underwater are ducks and scallops, both countered by sirens - and hover has only one anti-sub unit - the claymore - which I never found a use for (and they are countered by sirens crazy range). Floating amphs are also immobile - making them vulnerable to artilery above water and to sirens/seawolfs when getting to their position. Sea has no good DPS raider or anti-heavy (Corsair or Scalpel don't count - both countered by Seawolf and then finished off by the Siren they tried to counter).
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18 |
I don't know where to begin here. One problem is the non-viability of hovers and amphs on sea maps. Amph performs better on ground then on sea - the only units which can fire underwater are ducks and scallops, both countered by sirens - and hover has only one anti-sub unit - the claymore - which I never found a use for (and they are countered by sirens crazy range). Floating amphs are also immobile - making them vulnerable to artilery above water and to sirens/seawolfs when getting to their position. Sea has no good DPS raider or anti-heavy (Corsair or Scalpel don't count - both countered by Seawolf and then finished off by the Siren they tried to counter).
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| 19 |
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19 |
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| 20 |
The Siren/Ronin/Seawolf combo is deadly. Seawolf is not best used as a raider, as [i]they[/i] would like you to believe. They are support - making the enemy easy prey. The enemies can be then easily killed by the Ronins or Sirens.
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20 |
The Siren/Ronin/Seawolf combo is deadly. Seawolf is not best used as a raider, as [i]they[/i] would like you to believe. They are support - making the enemy easy prey. The enemies can be then easily killed by the Ronins or Sirens.
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21 |
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| 22 |
Neither of the 3 are counterable by air - they have too much HP per cost to be countered by wywerns or ravens. Gunships are screwed too - again, too much HP. Zephyrs are really good too - 400M for the DPS or two razors AND mobility? Also, it has radar and good HP?!
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22 |
Neither of the 3 are counterable by air - they have too much HP per cost to be countered by wywerns or ravens. Gunships are screwed too - again, too much HP. Zephyrs are really good too - 400M for the DPS or two razors AND mobility? Also, it has radar and good HP?!
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| 23 |
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23 |
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| 24 |
So, this makes all the units really hard to counter. They will never lose more metal in an attack then your units will. The Ronin can also snipe helpless above water units - for example, a Scorpion cannont even attempt to dodge the ultrafast plasma death.
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24 |
So, this makes all the units really hard to counter. They will never lose more metal in an attack then your units will. The Ronin can also snipe helpless above water units - for example, a Scorpion cannont even attempt to dodge the ultrafast plasma death.
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| 25 |
So: Siren/Ronin/Seawolf combo
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25 |
So: Siren/Ronin/Seawolf combo
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| 26 |
Counters: All naval raiders, Slow ground units, Slow or low HP abovewater units, Slow shortrange underwater units (that means all of them), All statics in their range.
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26 |
Counters: All naval raiders, Slow ground units, Slow or low HP abovewater units, Slow shortrange underwater units (that means all of them), All statics in their range.
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Countered by: Big Bertha spam, Nuclear cleansing, Zenith, DRP, Starlight or a bigger ball of the Siren/Ronin/Seawolf combo.
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27 |
Countered by: Big Bertha spam, Nuclear cleansing, Zenith, DRP, Starlight or a bigger ball of the Siren/Ronin/Seawolf combo.
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| 28 |
Mariner or Zephyr or Shogun can be effectively added to the ball for additional uncounterability.
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28 |
Mariner or Zephyr or Shogun can be effectively added to the ball for additional uncounterability.
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| 29 |
\n
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29 |
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| 30 |
One of really important aspects of every competitive game is making units fun to use. But whats also really important, often forgotten and really hard to do, is to make units fun when they are used on you. The units that make the player feel horrible when they are used on him are the uncounterable ones - getting Berthad to death is much less fun then getting nuked. Berthas, Behes, Impalers, DDMs, Ronins and Shoguns, all suffer from this.
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30 |
One of really important aspects of every competitive game is making units fun to use. But whats also really important, often forgotten and really hard to do, is to make units fun when they are used on you. The units that make the player feel horrible when they are used on him are the uncounterable ones - getting Berthad to death is much less fun then getting nuked. Berthas, Behes, Impalers, DDMs, Ronins and Shoguns, all suffer from this.
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31 |
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| 32 |
The joke is that the the counters to the combo are those units, which are also really unfun to play against them. These unit are bad design. A safe and uncounterable startegy is much less fun for both sides. The sea combo is also much less fun to play then the potentially dangerous strats on the ground. Its much more satisfying if you can see the enemy getting crushed.
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32 |
The joke is that the the counters to the combo are those units, which are also really unfun to play against them. These unit are bad design. A safe and uncounterable startegy is much less fun for both sides. The sea combo is also much less fun to play then the potentially dangerous strats on the ground. Its much more satisfying if you can see the enemy getting crushed.
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| 34 |
[b]More unit design[/b]
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34 |
[b]More unit design[/b]
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| 35 |
Some additional things - when a sea is controlled completely by one team, its impossible to take it back. Hovers and amphs dont stand a chance. The lack of flex-anti-sub is really limiting sea opportunities. Scalpel could try to use its missiles underwater. Mace could too - but its damage could degrade over range. Same with Buoy and Grizzly. Make it so projectiles are slower underwater and lasers and plasma would lose damage over range. Just make everyone try to be anti-sub, just like AA. Also, it would be nice for Duck and Scallop to use their land weapons underwater, it would be more intuitive.
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35 |
Some additional things - when a sea is controlled completely by one team, its impossible to take it back. Hovers and amphs dont stand a chance. The lack of flex-anti-sub is really limiting sea opportunities. Scalpel could try to use its missiles underwater. Mace could too - but its damage could degrade over range. Same with Buoy and Grizzly. Make it so projectiles are slower underwater and lasers and plasma would lose damage over range. Just make everyone try to be anti-sub, just like AA. Also, it would be nice for Duck and Scallop to use their land weapons underwater, it would be more intuitive.
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| 36 |
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36 |
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| 37 |
The Cutter deals microscopic damage and the Hunter is secretly a Dagger.
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37 |
The Cutter deals microscopic damage and the Hunter is secretly a Dagger.
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38 |
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| 39 |
The
underwater
weapons
feel
wrong.
They
dont
really
have
a
good
noise
compared
to
ground
and
are
really
hard
too
see.
They
just
dont
feel
satisfying.
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39 |
The
underwater
weapons
feel
wrong.
They
don't
really
have
a
good
noise
compared
to
ground
and
are
really
hard
too
see.
They
just
don't
feel
satisfying.
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| 40 |
\n
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40 |
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| 41 |
And lastly, on sea maps with ground, there is almost nothing to raid or assault! The expensive E structures and coms are all hiding on the ground. This can make sea-only raiders and assaults feel a bit pointless.
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41 |
And lastly, on sea maps with ground, there is almost nothing to raid or assault! The expensive E structures and coms are all hiding on the ground. This can make sea-only raiders and assaults feel a bit pointless.
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42 |
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| 43 |
[b]Sea to land "interactions"[/b]
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43 |
[b]Sea to land "interactions"[/b]
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| 44 |
Sea to land interactions are in theory a very fun idea. But this has two fatal flaws. 1: The interactions are not fun. 2: Where are the [b]land to sea[/b] interactions?
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44 |
Sea to land interactions are in theory a very fun idea. But this has two fatal flaws. 1: The interactions are not fun. 2: Where are the [b]land to sea[/b] interactions?
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| 45 |
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45 |
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| 46 |
Terrorizing
ground
forces
with
an
invincible
Ronin
is
not
that
much
fun.
But
let
me
give
you
an
example
of
good
interactions.
Imagine
a
slow,
hard
to
detect,
aquatic
moving
fortress.
Near
the
shore,
the
fortress
jumps
out
of
the
water
with
jumpjets
and
becomes
a
static
building,
only
movable
with
jumpjets.
Unless
the
ground
reacts
quickly,
it
destroys
the
shoreline.
But
they
can
counter
it.
The
fortress
would
have
one
flaw
-
the
jumpjets
take
45
seconds
to
recharge.
What
about
land
to
sea
interactions?
You
could
do
things
like
making
Claws
and
Skuttles
amphibious.
Make
units
on
the
seafloor
cloakable.
Or
why
not
take
our
trusty
jumping
fortress,
build
it
on
the
ground,
jump
into
the
sea,
attach
to
the
seafloor,
and
contunue
destruction?
|
46 |
Terrorizing
ground
forces
with
an
invincible
Ronin
is
not
that
much
fun.
But
let
me
give
you
an
example
of
good
interactions.
Imagine
a
slow,
hard
to
detect,
aquatic
moving
fortress.
Near
the
shore,
the
fortress
jumps
out
of
the
water
with
jumpjets
and
becomes
a
static
building,
only
movable
with
jumpjets.
Unless
the
ground
reacts
quickly,
it
destroys
the
shoreline.
But
they
can
counter
it.
The
fortress
would
have
one
flaw
-
the
jumpjets
take
45
seconds
to
recharge.
What
about
land
to
sea
interactions?
You
could
do
things
like
making
Claws
and
Skuttles
amphibious.
Make
units
on
the
seafloor
cloakable.
Or
why
not
take
our
trusty
jumping
fortress,
build
it
on
the
ground,
jump
into
the
sea,
attach
to
the
seafloor,
and
continue
destruction?
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| 47 |
\n
|
47 |
\n
|
| 48 |
I
think
these
interactions
would
be
a
lot
better
then
the
ones
that
we
have
now.
|
48 |
I
think
these
interactions
would
be
a
lot
better
then
the
ones
we
have
now.
|
| 49 |
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49 |
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|
| 50 |
[b]The lack of the pluk[/b]
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50 |
[b]The lack of the pluk[/b]
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| 51 |
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51 |
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| 52 |
Some dont want to admit it, but dangerous and troll strategies make Zero-K a better game. More options and less monotonous certainty is always good. Sea just doesn't have enough complexity to have them. The lack of cloak underwater removes a lot of options. I have some really [s]crazy[/s] amazing ideas. Why not make gunships able to go underwater? Why not make more sea striders?
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52 |
Some dont want to admit it, but dangerous and troll strategies make Zero-K a better game. More options and less monotonous certainty is always good. Sea just doesn't have enough complexity to have them. The lack of cloak underwater removes a lot of options. I have some really [s]crazy[/s] amazing ideas. Why not make gunships able to go underwater? Why not make more sea striders?
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| 53 |
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53 |
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| 54 |
But I have written enough. I do have some more clear ideas what to do with sea (for another post).
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54 |
But I have written enough. I do have some more clear ideas what to do with sea (for another post).
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| 55 |
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55 |
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| 56 |
By the way, I lied.
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56 |
By the way, I lied.
|
| 57 |
[q]Siren/Ronin/Seawolf combo
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57 |
[q]Siren/Ronin/Seawolf combo
|
| 58 |
Countered
by:
Big
Bertha
spam,
Nuclear
cleansing,
Zenith,
DRP,
Starlight
or
a
bigger
ball
of
the
Siren/Ronin/Seawolf
combo.
[/q]There
is
another
counter.
It's
easy
and
it
is
used
a
lot
by
the
community.
It's
simple:
[b]Do
not
play
sea
maps.
[/b]
|
58 |
Countered
by:
Big
Bertha
spam,
Nuclear
cleansing,
Zenith,
DRP,
Starlight
or
a
bigger
ball
of
the
Siren/Ronin/Seawolf
combo.
[/q]There
is
another
counter.
It's
easy
and
it
is
used
a
large
portion
by
the
community.
It's
simple:
[b]Do
not
play
sea
maps.
[/b]
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| 59 |
And that is everything I have to say.
|
59 |
And that is everything I have to say.
|
| 60 |
[size=0.25]why did i spend so much time writing this[/size]
|
60 |
[size=0.25]why did i spend so much time writing this[/size]
|
Sea - the problem