| 1 |
Istrolid is very relevant to this discussion.
|
1 |
Istrolid is very relevant to this discussion.
|
| 2 |
\n
|
2 |
\n
|
| 3 |
I think more went wrong with that game's design besides AI, but let's focus on that. And my take on this is that Istrolid went too far to satisfy the fringes while the center couldn't hold.
|
3 |
I think more went wrong with that game's design besides AI, but let's focus on that. And my take on this is that Istrolid went too far to satisfy the fringes while the center couldn't hold.
|
| 4 |
\n
|
4 |
\n
|
| 5 |
There is essentially no way in Istrolid to provide meaningful input to AI-controlled units. Some attempts at that were tackled on later (such as units ceasing to execute their AI program when selected), but that was a binary yes/no.
|
5 |
There is essentially no way in Istrolid to provide meaningful input to AI-controlled units. Some attempts at that were tackled on later (such as units ceasing to execute their AI program when selected), but that was a binary yes/no.
|
| 6 |
\n
|
6 |
\n
|
| 7 |
There are no unit states and no way to quickly select between multiple AI programs. There is a line move but there is no fight move. Each unit can be given only one global behavior. You can't, for example, tell a unit that is programmed as an armed scout to stalk out a specific position to prevent capture by enemies - the moment you deselect it will fuck off to resume its normal programming. Consequently, the normal AI has to be all and everything this unit will ever have.
|
7 |
There are no unit states and no way to quickly select between multiple AI programs. There is a line move but there is no fight move. Each unit can be given only one global behavior. You can't, for example, tell a unit that is programmed as an armed scout to stalk out a specific position to prevent capture by enemies - the moment you deselect it will fuck off to resume its normal programming. Consequently, the normal AI has to be all and everything this unit will ever have.
|
| 8 |
\n
|
8 |
\n
|
| 9 |
It's not just the community that is split into hard-ai and hard-human camps. The units themselves are segregated into automated battleships and drone fighters on one end, and darth vader's personal manual-use phase bomber on the other.
|
9 |
It's not just the community that is split into hard-ai and hard-human camps. The units themselves are segregated into automated battleships and drone fighters on one end, and darth vader's personal manual-use phase bomber on the other.
|
| 10 |
\n
|
10 |
\n
|
| 11 |
I think this is a great missed opportunity. Imagine an istrolid where instead of telling your unit that you are ASSUMING DIRECT CONTROL because you want to fight its poor little brain by using it to capture points while it desperately wants to be a fighter... you just instead tell it to EXECUTE ORDER 66 (WHICH IS CAPTURE NEAREST POINT AND HOLD IT).
|
11 |
I think this is a great missed opportunity. Imagine an istrolid where instead of telling your unit that you are ASSUMING DIRECT CONTROL because you want to fight its poor little brain by using it to capture points while it desperately wants to be a fighter... you just instead tell it to EXECUTE ORDER 66 (WHICH IS CAPTURE NEAREST POINT AND HOLD IT).
|
| 12 |
\n
|
12 |
\n
|
| 13 |
So, rather than control the unit with your jerky qwop movements, you control it with your intentions; higher-level orders that it has some brains to interpret as it can.
|
13 |
So, rather than control the unit with your jerky qwop movements, you control it with your intentions; higher-level orders that it has some brains to interpret as it can.
|
| 14 |
\n
|
14 |
\n
|
| 15 |
What could that look like in ZK? For example, i think our unit states are quite dated. Roam and Maneuver in particular are meaningless; instead they could be Move Evasively or Move Aggressively, or something more meaningful in [i]that[/i] way.
|
15 |
What could that look like in ZK? For example, i think our unit states are quite dated. Roam and Maneuver in particular are meaningless; instead they could be Move Evasively or Move Aggressively, or something more meaningful in [i]that[/i] way.
|
| 16 |
\n
|
16 |
\n
|
| 17 |
(Scythe on holdpos: YOU CANNOT PASS SIR KNIGHT. Scythe on evasive: PLEASE PASS, NOTHING TO SEE HERE SIR KNIGHT. Scythe on aggressive: I WILL HUNT YOU DOWN AND TEAR YOU LIMB FROM LIMB SIR KNIGHT)
|
17 |
(Scythe on holdpos: YOU CANNOT PASS SIR KNIGHT. Scythe on evasive: PLEASE PASS, NOTHING TO SEE HERE SIR KNIGHT. Scythe on aggressive: I WILL HUNT YOU DOWN AND TEAR YOU LIMB FROM LIMB SIR KNIGHT)
|
| 18 |
\n
|
18 |
\n
|
|
|
19 |
(Or maybe those could be commands insted. Aggro movestate is pretty much Fight. A move command with an evasive state could be Sneak. There are many ways to build a clock)
|
|
|
20 |
\n
|
| 19 |
[quote]I disagree. You can lean hard on the real time strategy requirement (requiring you to think about and plan through a complex and evolving situation) without needing to split attention heavily.[/quote]
|
21 |
[quote]I disagree. You can lean hard on the real time strategy requirement (requiring you to think about and plan through a complex and evolving situation) without needing to split attention heavily.[/quote]
|
| 20 |
I don't think you can reduce a game in such a way without either turning it into tactics, or allowing your opponent to abuse the asymmetry of focus.
|
22 |
I don't think you can reduce a game in such a way without either turning it into tactics, or allowing your opponent to abuse the asymmetry of focus.
|
| 21 |
\n
|
23 |
\n
|
| 22 |
Conversely, you can often pick strategies in ZK that negate this asymmetry of attentions. Cheeses are one kind of such strategy; and i miss days when there were more of these viable.
|
24 |
Conversely, you can often pick strategies in ZK that negate this asymmetry of attentions. Cheeses are one kind of such strategy; and i miss days when there were more of these viable.
|
| 23 |
\n
|
25 |
\n
|
| 24 |
(You could say that a rush is in fact a method of reducing an unfolding expanding-complexity strategy game into a tactics game)
|
26 |
(You could say that a rush is in fact a method of reducing an unfolding expanding-complexity strategy game into a tactics game)
|
Widgets vs Cheating