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@dyth68
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@dyth68
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[q]No, I'm just 90% sure that 90% of the people I'm talking to are unfamiliar with this nuance, so I'm using "widget" in a manner I think they'll understand (e.g. little bits of unit behaviour).
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[q]No, I'm just 90% sure that 90% of the people I'm talking to are unfamiliar with this nuance, so I'm using "widget" in a manner I think they'll understand (e.g. little bits of unit behaviour).
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I admit, in hindsight it might have been better to just post as if I was talking to you rather than trying to speak to a wider audience.[/q]
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I admit, in hindsight it might have been better to just post as if I was talking to you rather than trying to speak to a wider audience.[/q]
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This doesn't matter. I was not concerned at all about how you used the word widget.
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This doesn't matter. I was not concerned at all about how you used the word widget.
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[q]The main point I was trying to make there was "Getting competitive at ZK already involves figuring out a whole bunch of UI and slightly janky behaviours, this bit extra is a drop in the bucket". [/q]
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[q]The main point I was trying to make there was "Getting competitive at ZK already involves figuring out a whole bunch of UI and slightly janky behaviours, this bit extra is a drop in the bucket". [/q]
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Can you actually demonstrate this? It seems like a lot of what I and others have been writing refute this point. What is your answer to my refutation of your dot points?
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Can you actually demonstrate this? It seems like a lot of what I and others have been writing refute this point. What is your answer to my refutation of your dot points?
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Are you seriously saying that top ZK players have to master GBC and this obscure autojump widget? If you're not, then don't use them to pad out your examples.
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Are you seriously saying that top ZK players have to master GBC and this obscure autojump widget? If you're not, then don't use them to pad out your examples.
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This flows nicely into what seems to be your main point.
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This flows nicely into what seems to be your main point.
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[q][q]Imagine a master cobbler who shows up to a race with a box of magic shoes that double the running speed of the wearer. Unfortunately he only knows how to make them in one size - his own. Others can wear them with some greater or lesser degree of discomfort, and they don't fit some people at all. Having a whole box of such shoes doesn't make the race fair, and even many who can wear the shoes, but quite uncomfortably, would probably rather not have to.[/q]
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[q][q]Imagine a master cobbler who shows up to a race with a box of magic shoes that double the running speed of the wearer. Unfortunately he only knows how to make them in one size - his own. Others can wear them with some greater or lesser degree of discomfort, and they don't fit some people at all. Having a whole box of such shoes doesn't make the race fair, and even many who can wear the shoes, but quite uncomfortably, would probably rather not have to.[/q]
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I think this describes this game and every other game to an extent. Every game has bits of UI that you're not good with or don't mesh with your playstyle. Particularly games with a single main developer will have the "shoes" made to fit that vision (which other people may struggle with)...
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I think this describes this game and every other game to an extent. Every game has bits of UI that you're not good with or don't mesh with your playstyle. Particularly games with a single main developer will have the "shoes" made to fit that vision (which other people may struggle with)...
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Which makes me think I'd misunderstood and that's the whole point you were trying to get at...
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Which makes me think I'd misunderstood and that's the whole point you were trying to get at...
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That Zero-K is the game made with @GoogleFrog shaped shoes (or at least @GoogleFrog-vision shaped shoes), so the people who liked it and play it will be those with somewhat @GoogleFrog shaped feet, so someone else coming in with, for example, @Brackman shaped knee-braces puts the @Brackman shaped people at an advantage? Am I getting this right?
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That Zero-K is the game made with @GoogleFrog shaped shoes (or at least @GoogleFrog-vision shaped shoes), so the people who liked it and play it will be those with somewhat @GoogleFrog shaped feet, so someone else coming in with, for example, @Brackman shaped knee-braces puts the @Brackman shaped people at an advantage? Am I getting this right?
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Is there also the fact that you make an effort to make the shoes fit as many people as possible (even if this doesn't always work, e.g. Superfluid) while most widget-makers won't (and those who do are probably going to have a PR fairly quickly putting it in the base game and making it no longer custom)?[/q]
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Is there also the fact that you make an effort to make the shoes fit as many people as possible (even if this doesn't always work, e.g. Superfluid) while most widget-makers won't (and those who do are probably going to have a PR fairly quickly putting it in the base game and making it no longer custom)?[/q]
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Yes, to some extent games are tailored towards their developers interests. But you need a much stronger version of this claim to get anywhere close to arguing that 1v1 should be a unit AI widget development free for all. Essentially, you have to subscribe to the belief that any random person who can write a bit of code is no worse than me at keeping this game fun, fair and balanced. For a large proportion of players - not just whoever it is that is writing the code. You may personally prefer @Brackman, but do you prefer everyone?
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Yes, to some extent games are tailored towards their developers interests. But you need a much stronger version of this claim to get anywhere close to arguing that 1v1 should be a unit AI widget development free for all. Essentially, you have to subscribe to the belief that any random person who can write a bit of code is no worse than me at keeping this game fun, fair and balanced. For a large proportion of players - not just whoever it is that is writing the code. You may personally prefer @Brackman, but do you prefer everyone?
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Put another way, a big part of game design is putting aside your own playstyles and quirks to make a game for a wide range of people, not just the designer. The natural state is to overfit games to a single person - the designer - because you are your own most immediate feedback. It takes work to push against this. Widget developers routinely do not do this work, and who can blame them, it's work.
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Put another way, a big part of game design is putting aside your own playstyles and quirks to make a game for a wide range of people, not just the designer. The natural state is to overfit games to a single person - the designer - because you are your own most immediate feedback. It takes work to push against this. Widget developers routinely do not do this work, and who can blame them, it's work.
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TLDR: False equivalence between me and widget developers.
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TLDR: False equivalence between me and widget developers.
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Edit:
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[q]Is there also the fact that you make an effort to make the shoes fit as many people as possible (even if this doesn't always work, e.g. Superfluid) while most widget-makers won't (and those who do are probably going to have a PR fairly quickly putting it in the base game and making it no longer custom)?[/q]
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I didn't parse this sentence on first reading, but I think I answered it above, and the answer is yes. Also I am really doubtful of claim that Superfluid didn't work. 1v1 activity improved significantly since then and overall player numbers are pretty good too. It's hard to tell because of the pandemic peak though. Anyway, I think the onus is on you to show it didn't generally work.
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Widgets in competitive games