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Title: MatchMaker 52
Host: Nobody
Game version: Zero-K v1.5.3.4
Engine version: 103.0.1-697-g918caba
Started: 6 months ago
Duration: 19 minutes
Players: 2
Bots: False
Mission: False
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Team 1

EErankAdminAnarchid
Team 2

CHrankAdminDeinFreund
Spectators
USrankFealthas

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CHrankAdminDeinFreund
6 months ago
is a sad story.
+1 / -0


AUrankSnuggleBass
6 months ago
This was a really scrappy game.

[Spoiler]
+1 / -0



EErankAdminAnarchid
6 months ago
(edited 6 months ago)

quote:
It'd have been interesting to test out the "rocko beats scalpel now" theory tested
I kind of did test this theory in this game. Part of why i switched to cloaky was interest in seeing how their buffed units fare.

Rockos seem not bad on their own, but even token presence of halberd/dagger tips it back. Whereas glaives, ravagers darts and scorchers fail to punish scorcher in a similar way.

A less compact but stronger version of "scalpel beats everythineg" is "Scalpel does not have good counters in LV or Cloaky". Some things do counter naked Scalpels, but that does not make them good.

In hindsight yeah, i should have went for bigger bullshit skirmishers. Or have used less rust.
+0 / -0



AUrankAdminGoogleFrog
6 months ago
You were beating Scalpels then decided to switch into units that didn't beat Scalpels.
+0 / -0

RUrankxxzcc
6 months ago
quote:
I kind of did test this theory in this game. Part of why i switched to cloaky was interest in seeing how their buffed units fare.
elo holds no meaning when it is used in matches where players are still figuring out game changes.
+0 / -0


AUrankSnuggleBass
6 months ago
It kinda does have meaning. Anarchid would still beat most people in a 'lets figure out the balance changes' match, and this is predicted by his elo. It's just an increase in variance is all.
+0 / -0

AUrankhedgehogs
6 months ago
(edited 6 months ago)

Rocko cannot beat Scalpel because it outranges by 5 elo, misses quite a bit, whilst Scalpel can 1 hit and get an almost guranteed kill. this is pretty much the whole story once anarchid swapped to Cloak

Scalpel was getting killed pretty fast by Scorcher, and do remember it is possible to dodge their missiles.

Glaives would have helped since they are pretty nimble and dodge most of the Hovercraft Factory.

LV has a pretty decent counter to Scalpel, which is not Dominatrix.

If you had made a bunch of Ravagaers to tank the scalpel shots/Darts to dodge, then filled gap in by Scorcher it would have worked.
Also, all you really needed was 2 Ravagers to punch through DF's defenses, since their all defenders and very little Stinger

quote:
"Scalpel does not have good counters in LV or Cloaky

Glaive
Scorcher
Dart
Wolverine
Ravager (Just punch through them)
???? what are you saying?

It could be:
"LV/Cloak cannot counter Scalpels once a Mace comes into play"

SCALPEL
[Spoiler]
+0 / -2



EErankAdminAnarchid
6 months ago
(edited 6 months ago)

quote:
Glaive
Scorcher
Dart
Wolverine
Ravager (Just punch through them)
???? what are you saying?

Ravagers don't work at all, Wolverines take forever to do any damage and a single Halberd can kill an unlimited amount of them; Glaives, Scorchers and Darts take guaranteed casualties to even attack Scalpels, and if you send many, some will die from AoE. And that's even before your enemy grows some skill and peppers some Dagger/Mace around to ruin your day.

To kill a single Scalpel with Scorchers, you need two. That's 260 metal, which is more than a single Scalpel. And one of them will die. And if you send just one, you achieve precisely nothing. Such counter, wow.

Glaives come a bit closer, in an ideal case you need just 120 worth of Glaives, and all Glaives that survive deal reasonable damage.

Dart-Scorcher mixes can be best if you can get Scalpels to waste all shots on Darts. But it's still a pretty crappy counter.

Contrast this with other raider-skirmisher relationships, where a single Glaive can kill a dozen Rockos if left unattended.

Did you actually watch the game?
+1 / -1

AUrankhedgehogs
6 months ago
(edited 6 months ago)

Are you serious?

Don't swap to a unit that cannot counter Scalpels, like Bass said, you were holding a pretty good toe to toe fight, where you would trade things.

But I don't fight this like chess, trade pawn for pawn, or rook for knight, I simply slaughter everyone and heal off any casualties


You clumped the dart with a scorcher and expected that to draw out enemy fire?

If you are trading 260Metal to 220, then yes it is inefficient, but Dart+Scorcher can kill Scalpel with minimal casualties since Dart can dodge the missiles.

Turn on UnitAi, the dodge moves it does can actually evade some missiles if your lucky, or do a turn more than 33 degrees to shake it off.


Scalpel is a unit you shouldn't counter pound per pound, you rushed Rockos, which almost always miss against a moving target, and expect the extra 5Elmo range to do much.

quote:

To kill a single Scalpel with Scorchers, you need two. That's 260 metal, which is more than a single Scalpel. And one of them will die. And if you send just one, you achieve precisely nothing. Such counter, wow

Counters shouldn't be much cheaper/more expensive than something.



quote:

Contrast this with other raider-skirmisher relationships

Comaprison:
They are all Skirms.
Contrast:
All the other skirms do not have homing missiles.
This is why Scalpel is much different.
quote:
Did you actually watch the game


Of course I did, and I have to say, that amount of wreckage just lying there broke my heart.
[Spoiler]

Again, I just rush with a force much larger than scalpels, punch through porc and win game.

[/spoiler]

+0 / -1


AUrankAquanim
6 months ago
Downvoting people who take the time to explain to you how the game actually works will not motivate them to spend time on your behalf in the future.
+2 / -0



EErankAdminAnarchid
6 months ago
(edited 6 months ago)

Perhaps you can show me how to properly play the game in a best of five? How about 18 UTC today? :P

quote:
Have 1 Scorcher ahead of your main force, then all of the scalpels fire at it.

This is an alternative fact. Scalpels have overkill prevention. A single Scorcher will attract only one Scalpel's fire.

quote:
All the other skirms do not have homing missiles.

Indeed; those other units are skirmisher. Scalpel is a bullshit skirmisher.
+2 / -0


AUrankAquanim
6 months ago
(edited 6 months ago)

This all being said, I've personally had moderate success with Darts (plus some other stuff to follow up) against Scalpels - but it's not some hard counter which totally removes the presence of Scalpels on the battlefield.
+1 / -0

AUrankhedgehogs
6 months ago
(edited 6 months ago)

Australia is much much forward in time, and no

AUrankAquanim freedom to do anything.

[spoiler]. Scalpels have overkill prevention. A single Scorcher will attract only one Scalpel's fire[/q]
Apparently I'm missing out, 5 scalpels fired on 1 mex.


Don't counter it pound for pound, pretty dangerous unit, would you counter a Queen with a Rook?

+0 / -0



EErankAdminAnarchid
6 months ago
quote:
Australia is much much forward in time, and no

Sad. Many such cases.
+2 / -0

AUrankhedgehogs
6 months ago
(edited 6 months ago)

AUrankAquanim

The best thing you can do is keep Scalpel from reaching critical mass.

If you achieve that, Hoverfac will lose if you can make good on it.

Why:
Scalpel cannot 1Hit any assault unit at full HP, so it's best to just leave a few Scalpels alone and focus on the base.

EErankAdminAnarchid , you should have just gone for base, but since you are testing counters you should have just kept driving Scorchers around and being aggressive with Ravagers, whilst building up a force that would win game.
Scorchers also counter Halberds if you keep your distance, so whole Halberd+Scalpel can end up losing to LV.

Also you should simply trade 1 Unit to kill 2, Scorcher kills two in 7Seconds close range, which is pretty fast.


+0 / -0

AUrankhedgehogs
6 months ago
In hindsight, going Rockos was pretty much parrying a sword with a balsa stick.
+0 / -0

RUrankxxzcc
6 months ago
quote:
It kinda does have meaning. Anarchid would still beat most people in a 'lets figure out the balance changes' match, and this is predicted by his elo. It's just an increase in variance is all.
When there are huge differences in experience between players that overshadows any balance(changes).
Similiar most people could beat for example AUrankhedgehogs in a 'lets figure out the balance changes' match.

When players of roughly equal skill play a game where neither is fully aware of recent balance changes, then weight is shifted from "skill" to "luck."
zeroK is fragile for this because combat starts early, units die quick, and players play relatively few matches between versions.
+0 / -0


AUrankSnuggleBass
6 months ago
AUrankhedgehogs
While I do think Anarchids conclusions are too hasty, your reasoning doesn't work out. Scalpels crush the life out of ravager, and are difficult to approach with scorchers given even the most minimal support.

The way you talk its as if you are the pro and anarchid is the noob. He's #3 on ladder. You're rank 66. I'm pretty sure he could play against two of you and win with little effort, yet you're bragging about your wins, while telling him about his failings.

Could you please just once back up a single shred of any of the host of strong opinions you push with even an inkling of evidence? Beat someone with the compositions you espouse. Show us why you're right instead of telling us.
+2 / -0

AUrankhedgehogs
6 months ago
(edited 6 months ago)

quote:

Could you please just once back up a single shred of any of the host of strong opinions you push with even an inkling of evidence

Watch replay, see how he parries a sword with a stick.

Anarchid should change conclusion to;

'LV and Cloak has no counters to Scalpel ball when a Mace appears', he was simply killing those Scalpels then he swapped to something which didn't
+0 / -0



MYrankAdminKingRaptor
6 months ago
quote:
would you counter a Queen with a Rook?

In life there are good analogies, moderate analogies, bad analogies and analogies that no sense whatsoever. Chess does not work on unit counters.
+2 / -0
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