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Title: MM 410: 1v1, Rank Singularity
Host: Nobody
Game version: Zero-K v1.6.11.2
Engine version: 104.0.1-287-gf7b0fcc
Started: 12 days ago
Duration: 19 minutes
Players: 2
Bots: False
Mission: False
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Team 1
Chance of victory: 73.3%

USrankFealthas
Team 2
Chance of victory: 26.7%

CHrankAdminDeinFreund

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CHrankAdminDeinFreund
12 days ago
(edited 11 days ago)

Match showing off all the recently changed units except Lobster. The reverted Cyclops seems to be much better at hitting Kodachis than before.
+0 / -0


GBrankdyth68
12 days ago
Phantoms continue to be ridiculously OP, once again making 4x cost.
In total the three of them killed:
20 Kodachis (!)
3 Minotaur (17 hits on target against them)
6 lotus
1 Ogre
1 Emissary
1 Radar
1 Caretaker
1 Mex
3 Trident
For a total of 8670 worth of metal destroyed (half the total damage done to Fealthas). And none of them died.

Current Cyclops hardly counters raiders, try Cyclops vs glaive, bandit, scorcher, dart...
The Kodachi is a special case as a proper high weight anti-econ raider with a teensy bit of riot. I've no idea why Fealthas was massing it late game (in large groups it's basically a 17 DPS riot), particularly as he needed to hit the valleys the Phantoms were lurking in, which Kodachi can't do.
+0 / -0

PTrankraaar
12 days ago
(edited 12 days ago)

I don't think phantoms are OP at all, although their ability to fire while cloaked can be very good they sacrifice a lot for it relative to either cheaper skirmishers, expensive ones like grizzly, or artillery like emissaries. They require considerable investment on other stuff to be deployed safely.

There are units on ZK which can
- sweep and kill them: fleas, glaives,darts
- push through : raider+assault
- kill them from outside their range without focusing them specifically : tremor, firewalkers
+3 / -0



AUrankAdminGoogleFrog
12 days ago
CHrankAdminDeinFreund you're chipping away at your credibility with such statements. The only forces used to fight the Cyclops were:
  • 3 Minotaurs.
  • 12 Kodachi.
  • 1 Tremor.
Tremor does nothing, Kodachi does very little, and the Minotaur are supposedly countered by Cyclops. Furthermore, the Cyclops was guarded by many Reavers and three Phantoms.
+0 / -0


USrankFealthas
12 days ago
(edited 12 days ago)

>kill them from outside their range distance without focusing them specifically : tremor, firewalkers


+1 / -1


GBrankdyth68
11 days ago
PTrankraaar : Sure, they need support, but consider what USrankFealthas would have had to do to counter them (as opposed to Win, which he could have just done by massing Minotaurs and storming CHrankAdminDeinFreund's base):
Fac switch to Cloak/Shield/Spider
Produce enough raiders that they can't be countered by CHrankAdminDeinFreund putting a couple of Reavers to lurk in the valley (so around 20 raiders)
Sneak these raiders up on the Phantoms. If Dein sees a large swarm of fast moving things coming on radar he'll prepare to drop the phantoms into his main army or base (or shift some more Reavers into the valley), so USrankFealthas needs to either put them under an Iris or sneak them down the valley.

Sure, it's certainly possible to counter, but it's extraordinarily difficult compared to countering literally everything else.
The vast majority of players (anyone outside of the top 10%, including me) can't really deal with Phantoms in valleys or mountains when they have a couple of Reavers escorting.
Most players can't even deal with a few Phantoms on attack move! In low level games I so often see newer people utterly helpless against Phantoms attacking from a number of different angles.
+0 / -0


CHrankAdminDeinFreund
11 days ago
(edited 11 days ago)

quote:
AUrankAdminGoogleFrog
DeinFreund you're chipping away at your credibility with such statements.

I didn't believe EErankAdminAnarchid, myself and all the other supporters of the new Cyclops had any credibility. Otherwise why would the Cyclops rework that took so many long discussions to achieve be reverted in an instant?

The reverted Cyclops isn't overpowered, it's just yet another characterless heavy. It hits Kodachis as well as it does Minotaurs and its slow beam is even more effective against Kodachi and other mid-weight units than it is against Minotaurs and up.

I know these anecdotes have no meaning on their own and that one is supposed to prove them with replays that can be interpreted as loosely as my words. Even then I get the feeling that there is no reward in spending time on balance discussions. Thus I'm simply stating my opinion and leaving it up to others to ignore it.

Please understand that I don't mean to say Zk is unbalanced or GoogleFrog is doing a bad job. I think the game is in a great state right now. The only thing I'm tired of, is to play along with the ritual that goes into achieving balance changes. If that's what it takes to keep the game balanced, then I'm fine with somebody taking the wheel.
+3 / -0



AUrankAdminGoogleFrog
11 days ago
(edited 11 days ago)

I'm sorry about Cyclops, it feels bad to revert work. What I haven't communicated is that I was aesthetically opposed to the slowgun Cyclops, both in design and (I am unsure how importantly) overall feel. My biggest design gripe was that it effectively dealt no slow damage against the majority of units, since they are instagibbed. It was also basically a big Buoy. The gfx and sfx also felt wrong for its size and class.

It is important whether a unit feels wrong, because it impacts my ability to make cohesive design changes and continue to balance around it (see Athena). Without motivation to work on tanks we would not have had a Kodachi rework or the Emissary nerf.

On anecdotes, I also use them as a guide towards replays to look at. When I watch a replay I like the associated anecdote to have relevance to the game. I would not call "Kodachi tries and fails to kill a Cyclops surrounded in Reavers" a demonstration of Cyclops countering raiders.
+5 / -0


CHrankAdminDeinFreund
11 days ago
(edited 11 days ago)

Thanks for the explanation. While I do believe that a big buoy in the tank factory is more interesting than a big minotaur with sidearm, it's up to you to make that decision. I certainly agree that the new visuals/sounds didn't quite match the heavy tank theme. I was not aware that you were looking into replays so actively, so I'll try to split my opinion from the description of the battle. (I've updated the OP)
+1 / -0



EErankAdminAnarchid
11 days ago
quote:
The gfx and sfx also felt wrong for its size and class.

I'll buy that the high-pitched sound effect wasn't the best conceivable match. But what was wrong with the gfx?

If anything, the current small yellow projectile conveys high damage even less.
+2 / -0

PTrankraaar
11 days ago
(edited 11 days ago)

zk balance discussions are a grind.
(edit: but that also seems to happen for most other games where i've seen balance discussions happen)

I also prefer the "normal" gun effects on the cyclops, but the current slow beam probably makes it effective in a bad way against high weight raiders and aircraft.

Should a likho or athunderbird get crippled by flying near a cyclops?





+1 / -0


USrankFealthas
11 days ago
I just want to say that I think HT vs CL is one of the worst matchups in the game.
The whole match hinges on a few units that the other has trouble countering, namely goli/Minotaur and sniper/scythe. There is very little opportunity for actual interaction of units that isn't super 1-sided.
+0 / -0


GBrankdyth68
10 days ago
(edited 10 days ago)

AUrankAdminGoogleFrog : Are you planning on keeping Cyclops as it currently is or are there further tweaks you want to make?
The impression I got from your previous posts was that it's a "raid enemy then retreat to safety with your high hp and speed (and a little bit of slow beam)" unit, is this the case?

USrankFealthas: It's not just Cloak, look at Rover. With the speed and bullet speed nerfs Cyclops is no longer able to survive Dominatrix, so the only Domi counter is Emissary.
+0 / -0

LUrankAnir
10 days ago
USrankFealthas, your arrogance towards other people is just stupid.

You are way out of shape and apparently dont know most counters considering your forum post so pls, dont share wrong "knowledge" and work on your attitude
+1 / -1


USrankFealthas
9 days ago
Let me know when you git gud lob.
+0 / -1


USrankFealthas
9 days ago
(edited 9 days ago)

Did you even watch the game lob?
+0 / -1

PTrankraaar
9 days ago
(edited 9 days ago)

I hadn't :)

USrankFealthas used a tremor and it kind of worked, it forced the snipers back.
He lost the game because of the way he mis-used the other stuff: could have fac-switched to cloaky bots or shield bots and spammed cheap skirmishers to complement the minotaur assault instead of throwing kodachis against reavers and phantoms.

The gunships didn't work.

He could have also made terraformed care-takers near the mid to get better cover and repair/reclaim.
+1 / -0