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Title: MM 579: 1v1, Rank Supergiant
Host: Nobody
Game version: Zero-K v1.7.5.1
Engine version: 104.0.1-1239-g12caea1
Started: 6 months ago
Duration: 7 minutes
Players: 2
Bots: False
Mission: False
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Team 1
Chance of victory: 93.4%

GBrankthe_green_squig
Team 2
Chance of victory: 6.6%

DErankVistritium
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6 months ago
This would be much greater game if you would remove those ridiculous un-fun to play against units.
+2 / -0

6 months ago
100% agree !

Tank factory just has no answer at all to domis... Arty may hold them back a bit but when they are cloaked its GG.

#TAAANKS !
+0 / -0

6 months ago
I've been told Kodachis work. Don't think I believe it though.
+0 / -0

6 months ago
Tanks have plenty of trouble against domis since they lack cheap raiders. However, there is tank units that work against domis:

first of all artillery units like Tremor and Emissary are able to kill domis. Tremor especially is good even against cloaked enemies as it covers so large area.

Second the Ogre is kinda 50/50 against Domis. Will destroy domi, but scales horribly against large domi stacks as after the first ogre has been captured, the other Ogres are likely target the captured one rarther than the enemy domi stack, but some ciritcal shots on the domi stack can damage multiple domis potentially wiping the domis controlling friendly domis out.

And third, the best frontline unit against domis in tank factory is Cyclops that can kite domis by shooting them with slowbeam and one shotting them with its cannon attack. Of course for every Cyclops your opponent is able to field 5 domis, but Cyclops have no problem to deal with the domis as long as they are able to kite them. The problem however comes from other units that are able to swarm the Cyclops.

Of course there is also the option of fac switching to something else, A Dante from Striderhub is also able to burn unshielded domi balls with its napalm rocket salvo.
+1 / -0

6 months ago
Kodas don't work. They used to work when they had actual afterburn, not in current state.

Your best bet is to try to saturate area with Pillagers and Stingers which often you don't have time to do. It's even worse when Dominatrix is joined with Fencer as Fencers ignore light defences.

Dominatrix is very bad experience to play against and feels design wise to make no sense that such powerful weapon is mounted on crappy looking and very unwieldy chasis.

I would suggest the following ideas/reworks:
- replace Capture with disarm beam and little damage with longer range - a bit similar to racketeer. Possibly a combo of small slow + disarm; Or some kind of immobilise beam akin to when Archer was broken
- make captured units permanently slowed as zombies are
- make capture rate do not stack with unit numbers - it's constant
- make capture progress decay rapidly (20%/s) when 3 seconds out of influence
- limit captured units leash range to twice the capture range before they automatically get damaged with capture damage by the unit's creator
+0 / -0

6 months ago
just make domi more expensive?
+0 / -0
FIrankterve886 : Cyclops costs more than the shieldfac+aspis that counters it and lets the Domi capture it.

You're better off building a spiderfac and fleas.

quote:
just make domi more expensive?

That makes it mostly useless against non-tankfac.
+0 / -0

6 months ago
capture needs to go. It needs to be on the difficult tier next to resurrect, not equipped on a basic skirmisher that's rolling out in 4 minutes. It just does.not.belong as a fundamental mechanic. Just look at value graphs, it's bonkers.
Why not paralyze? Even then could be considered far too strong. but just handing my cyclops right out of the factory to the other team for any reason is asinine.
My tumor is growing as well fam.
+2 / -1

6 months ago
there's 13 other things rovers excel at, capture reform movement 2019 gaining steam
+0 / -1

6 months ago
amen
+0 / -0


6 months ago
Dominatrix is a worry. A slow+disarm domi could be ok, and fits with hacking.

I would like capture to exist in some form so you can, for example, steal and capture an enemy strider in FFA. It doesn't need to be a type of capture that is viable for combat though.
+0 / -0
lol watched replay. I understand now the complaint is not about domi's being OP (which they are not, watch the replay), but being unfun.
[Spoiler]

domi's being unfun is a different thing though.
I feel the problem lies mainly with tanks vs domi: tanks are really fun to play when you can win by attrition, keeping your heavy units alive and building up an army until you are unstoppable.
However, domi's take this fun away from you by literally taking away your tanks...
With other facs you can have the satisfaction of wiping out the domi's with light units/scythes/snipers/air/bombs, but with tanks it is a bit harder.
Emissaries work, but since they are finicky and often hit them out of LOS you don't get the satisfaction of seeing the domi's explode (as in this game). I think almost anyone agrees that using arty to kill units is annoying for both sides.

What remains is the koda (and blitz?) option.
I find burning domi's fun, especially if they were trying to cloak. koda being immune to burn also helps somewhat to survive against captured koda's.
The question is whether this is fun enough, and if it is possible to reliably pull this off with decent unit control... difficult is not fun.

fun things about koda vs domi:
- fire
- higher mobility, choosing fights
- raiding
- cutting off reinforcements
- when kodaball is big enough, you can overwhelm/surround domi's

unfun things about koda vs domi:
- u cannot make (as much) heavy units :(
- low reloadtime/targetting: koda's would shoot at first koda to be captured, have to wait for reload when arriving in range of domiball
- painful when you undercommit, enemy now has koda's

Having some more replays of tanks(koda) vs domi can help to diagnose difficulties/unfunness in koda vs domi. Perhaps koda needs a buff, or a some changes to reload/damage/burn time to make it more fun to use (vs domi)
+2 / -0

6 months ago
Koda vs Domi is awful for many reasons:

1) no real damage or guarantee to kill
2) long reload that gets wasted on captured Kodas - unless you remembered to hold fire
3) more expensive than Scorcher
4) Koda looses to any real fighting units that Domis can be guarded with

It used to be okay-ish to rush Domis with Kodas cost for cost when the afterburn was enough to finish the Domi after being captured.

Also totally awful experience is when you try to rush with Koda raiding and the enemy builds Dominatrix just after dart to capture your Koda and raids you with it instead.

Tank builder + Kodachi + income in travel time is enough to get Dart + Domi in the same time.


I think if Capture is to be a mechanic - it should be way faster at almost melee range and only work on enemies that are disabled/paralysed. Then it can also have shorter delay between captures if the unit is heavy weight.

I've also mentioned capture bomb aka hack skuttle facehugger rework in the other thread.
+0 / -0


6 months ago
So how about something like this:
  • Dominatrix slows (and even disarms? not sure) at range.
  • Additionally, Dominatrix deals capture damage to sufficiently close units (a bit like Heatray falloff).
The capture falloff could be something like none for half its range, increasing to full to 25% of its range (visually this is __/-).

This would give Dominatrix more of a status effect support role, with the ability to chase down and capture enemy units if given the chance to close the distance. Adding slow and disarm sounds very silly but may work out. I think I would soft-remove capture reload in the sense that it would not be able to do the capture component of its weapon while reloading, but otherwise can apply the status effect. This sounds tricky for targeting AI.
+0 / -0
Move capture to Strider Hub.
+1 / -0
If Dominatrix is made unable to counter Ogre, or outright removed, then Rover will either be entirely countered by Ogre, or will need a new counter to Ogre.

I'm unsure if the continuous-slowbeam dominatrix proposal counters Ogre. I'm not even that sure Slow+Disarm beam Dominatrix does anything to Ogre.
+2 / -0

6 months ago
Yes EErankAdminAnarchid the balance would have to be revisited. Such Dominatrix could be made cheaper, so that you can get Scorcher + Dominatrix for the same price as Ogre. Isn't disarmed Ogre countered by Scorcher?
+0 / -0

6 months ago
slow then capture could work, I think it still would roll out kind of soon, maybe sooner in this case. There is something workable for capture domi but it seems too much of a struggle, and the mechanic itself could thrive up the tech tree a bit, maybe it belongs on athena directly next to resurrect.
Most debuffs would fit well with hacking theme; one I've never seen visited in discourse recently is damage amplification (i.e. armor reduction)

red status bar: at full debuff target takes 150% damage this is a ravager 2-shotting a domi'd ogre. Just spitballing here.
+0 / -1

6 months ago
Of course, I scouted tanks early and switched to hard counter, since everything else in rover gets eaten by Ogre.

I do think Emissaries have been written off too easily in the anti-domi stakes though. Emissary guided in by sparrow would be eminently affordable for tank and remember the days of killager complaints? At the very least domi player is having to invest serious micro in unpredictable movement with relatively sluggish, fat targets so as not to get squashed by leading artillery fire.

That said, I could deal with losing capture for some affordable battlefield disruption, especially something that hurts riots particularly which sounds like slow, really, maybe as an area effect similar to a small disruptor bomb.

Rover doesn't have a true move and fire skirmisher and a move and fire domi spitting slowballs might offer an interesting take on that niche. I wonder if it would be too close to moderator, but a pure slowball throwing (or one with nominal damage) domi would nicely support ravagers, rippers and scorchers.
+1 / -0


6 months ago
Capture is an interesting mechanism; it makes the capturing unit an even more valuable target with each capture executed, as killing the master frees its slaves. It leads to some interesting micro decisions and execution that aren't found in other tactical matchups.

Whether the current implementation in Dominatrix is good is open to debate, obviously, but it would be a shame to lose the mechanism entirely.
+4 / -0
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