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RAGE POST: Air diving

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1200 range perfectly accurate high DPS artillery for 300 metal?

Sure what could possibly go wrong.

It's also cute that you accept that the use of flak as a ground weapon is fluff and nothing to do with balance, yet you suggest that 'SAM-like rocket AA' would 'need to lock-on'.

I have actually favoured AA hitting ground since the change to defender to hit ground, but at this point it would require such a huge, radical change to the whole way that planes or units in general physically operate due to the different ranges involved that it would be re-designing much of the game from scratch.
+0 / -0
9 years ago
quote:
What is the fix for Phoenix aiming?

https://github.com/ZeroK-RTS/Zero-K/commit/ea84eeeddff90185f775663a76bff42e117e45a3

Apparently it has been fixed already. I dont think i have tried using phoenixes since that change.
Gonna do that extensively in some next nabgames and report the results.
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AUrankAdminSaktoth eitehr u didn't read carefully or I typed it not clearly enough. The german WW2 flak was jsut a randomly thrown trivia.

What I wanted to suggest was allowing all AA except rocket-firing ones and Archangels laser to be able to fire at ground targets with reduced (1/3 of oryginal) range.

That makes Cobra able to fire at 333 distance which is comparable to Outlaws AoE, and Razor at 347 which is more or less the same. Same with mobile AA.
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9 years ago
Why an arbitrary 1/3 range for only some units? The current system makes a lot more sense. If a unit has AA in its description then it only shoots at aircraft.

AA firing at ground is slowly being implemented. It is taking years but occasionally I drop AA damage and Plane HP. Soon Defender will be the only AA made vs planes and it is already flex. The other AA will either deal very little damage or be removable due to disuse.
+1 / -0
So no more Chainsaws ^^? I'd suggest redesigning them [the AA] then, not removing at all.

Why 1/3 range? Why not? 100% range would be way too OP ground balance-wise.

quote:
If a unit has AA in its description then it only shoots at aircraft.

If an unit has AA in description one is sure its supposed to fire at aircraft only. On the other hand when one see ''bomber''in description he is quite sure that teh unit is supposed to fire at ground only, not at otehr aircraft units too...

I dont want to argue with you, but your ''being logical'' reason fails at bombers. You either ''are logical'' and make bombers be anti ground only and AA anti aicraft only, or you are consistent and make both bombers and AA fire at eveyrthing.
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9 years ago
Ok perhaps I do not mean "logical" or "makes sense". The current AA system is consistent. It has a simple rule about shooting air that can be seen from the description of the unit. This is not the most visible place to put the rule but it is a start. It helps because some tutorial somewhere would say "AA in description means that it only shoots air".

I don't know of a rule that says bombers only shoot at ground. There are also very few bombers so consistency over the class is less important for readability. As far as I am aware the rule for things which are not AA is that they shoot at anything they are able to hit. This makes sense from a micromanagement standpoint as well because non-AA can be force fired at the ground. It looks quite feasible that a Raven could hit a Krow with ground force fire so it should just automatically implement the behavior.
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"AA firing at ground is slowly being implemented. It is taking years but occasionally I drop AA damage and Plane HP. Soon Defender will be the only AA made vs planes and it is already flex. The other AA will either deal very little damage or be removable due to disuse."

Yes this is just what I wanted to suggest. Quitely taking out one AA turret after the other so that the game slowly learn to live without it with the help of other changes to rebalance gradually the whole setup... easier said than done ofc.
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9 years ago
In order to fixed the AA targeting issue the game would have to be radically redone. Essentially both aircraft health and AA dps would need to be cut by a massive factor such that AA installations have such pathetic dps to be not worth using. That would also enhance air diving interactions (flex AA actually does something), and allow for gunships to have a niche (semi-resistant to AA but vulnerable to flex AA). But I think that the dedicated AA talk takes away from our focus on the Raven.

Currently I believe that the Raven is honestly too cost effective to be "balanced," and other planes are less cost effective to be somewhat "toothless."

First let's look at just how cost-efficient the Raven is. This is a 300m unit that acts with raider speed and cannot be targeted by conventional units. Even if every piece of AA was cost effective vs Ravens, you'd still need to have AA at every location that it can target. Air players can easily scout with swifts (and no you can't really stop them from doing it either), so it's not hard to see targets of interest and any one of them can be bombed. Because of this you need to make AA on every front or anywhere you'd rather not be bombed, and you need to make enough AA to stop incoming bombers. Adding on to that a planes player may sent multiple bombers to overwhelm your AA. Now at this point a smart air player can fac-switch and completely nullify your AA until you can react to new ground forces. At that point you have to fight ground forces and cover all your valuable assets with AA; I hope you can see the building expense here.

The scenario above assumes that all AA is cost effective vs bombers in general, and I hope you can see why air is inherently powerful. Now let's take a look at what actually defeats a Raven cost effectively in the static AA section. Assuming that statics are more valuable than mobiles we'll check cost efficiency here to see if mobile AA even has a chance.

4x Defenders stop 1 Raven for a total cost of 320m, this is arguably the most cost-effective solution as the Raven doesn't get to drop a bomb.

2x Razor's cost 560 metal and do not stop Ravens very effectively. One Razor can sometimes work, but it's so rare I'm not considering this case.

1x Hacksaw costs 400 metal and can trade effectively against a Raven,
however, it's easily overwhelmed or baited.

I'm going to stop here for a moment because anything after that is getting to statics too large to reliably build in a 1v1 setting. Each of these solutions cannot cost effectively trade with small numbers of Ravens, and while they stack well into late game, at that point you're likely going to have to worry about a fac switch. Please take a note to remember that you'd need to cover all your valuable (expanding or otherwise) assets on the field. A large multiple of these defenses may be needed to stop even one Raven from cost efficiently bombing you with zero-attrition.

Furthermore, this assumes that you have all this AA built when the air player has just one raven, take an example where your opponent has 2 because you took time to scout.

Tl;dr planes are inherently powerful, we don't need one that can bomb into static AA cost effectively.
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I have a complaint!

Raven bombs ignore shields!

Test done by placing an aegis 300 elmo below ground, sharing the Aegis to an enemy Null AI (along with a fusion for power) then telling the raven to bomb an area of ground protected by the shield! The bomb passes right through!

Please fix this!
+1 / -0
kerstal should be cheap and do about 100 damage. I use it for hitting raider blobs/small porc and taking out mexes.

Should behave like licho. nice cheap bomber spam. I set up auto bombing runs on the frontline.

Maybe a large aoe bomb but it doeesn't do alot of damage, around 100-150. So ten of them would do 1000 damage.

pretty cool to see a mini licho which shoots a mini bertha shot. Maybe it has 3 bullets before it needs to refill, so it can reload and pass over again xD
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9 years ago
QAranknorm0616
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But everything QAranknorm0616 said is right.
You only need 2-3 Ravens.
The other player has to spam aa while you can expand whereever you want and fac switch while air is killing every expansion of the other player.
After fac switch collect a few raider or tanky units (related on what 2. fac you got) 15-20 glaives f.e. or 10-15 bandits and overrun the aa spam, kill com, kill fac and GG.

I think we had this question too already, but what was the reason not to make airplane plant unploppable like athena or strider?

And btw. why did athena got unploppable? It wasn't OP at all and a interestion way to start a game.

quote:
AUrankAdminSaktoth
if we even want plane start in 1v1


I would say, no.
+1 / -0
quote:
I think we had this question too already, but what was the reason not to make airplane plant unploppable like athena or strider?


Yup, we had, the answer (as far aas I remeber) was - becasue it still would be rushable with help of teammates. >.<
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9 years ago
quote:
And btw. why did athena got unploppable? It wasn't OP at all and a interestion way to start a game.

Because it was pregame RPS.
+1 / -0


9 years ago
If plane start is so ridiculously powerful due to Raven then you should execute the strategy and win at 1v1. No amount of theorizing is going to cause a change here. Their apparently power has been talked about for a while now but I have not seen it reflected in gameplay. They can be a decent start in 1v1 and may be a tad too powerful but they are definitely not as powerful as claimed.

I have seen other Spring games with bombers. Apparently bomber balance is very hard to make interesting. In other games bombers are often ok at the start but relegated to uselessness or massive stockpiled suicide runs by the time AA appears. In ZK Ravens seem to have use throughout many games so I don't want to touch stuff based on some theoretical OPness.

quote:
Raven bombs ignore shields!
Cannot reproduce. Link a replay of you doing this.

Athena is not ploppable because it can assist allied factories or rush the front.
+3 / -0
9 years ago
AUrankAdminGoogleFrog For whatever reason, i cannot reproduce it again.
Sorry to bother you!
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9 years ago
Look if it the raven simply dived under the shield....
+1 / -0
quote:

PLrankFailer

quote:(I think we had this question too already, but what was the reason not to make airplane plant unploppable like athena or strider?)


Yup, we had, the answer (as far aas I remeber) was - becasue it still would be rushable with help of teammates. >.<


Where are your teammates in 1v1? I know it wouldn't stop air starts in teams but the question was about 1v1.

quote:

AUrankAdminGoogleFrog
If plane start is so ridiculously powerful due to Raven then you should execute the strategy and win at 1v1. No amount of theorizing is going to cause a change here. Their apparently power has been talked about for a while now but I have not seen it reflected in gameplay.


Multiplayer B283627 2 on Bandit_Plains_v1

quote:

AUrankAdminGoogleFrog
Athena is not ploppable because it can assist allied factories or rush the front.


Yes that was the interestion part about it.
But I never felt it was OP because of it.

I mean ok, you can support others and/or rush the front. But you got no factory and if athena get killed by planes/ defenders or something else you lost your 550 start metal too. It's kind of a all in rush if you do it.
Like Comnap in small teams or 1v1. If that fail you lost, if you can handle it well you get a better position in that game.
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quote:
B283627 2 on Bandit_Plains_v1

Proves lauri couldnt counter it well. He made many wrong decisions in the first few minutes:

Lost like 5 glaives to absolutely no effect
Did not build enough rectors to out-expand you (built useless glaives instead)
Did not contain your expansion (because he lost his damn glaives)
Spent too much time building defenders instead of getting naked expansion everywhere
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9 years ago
Sounds like DErankMagman and RUrankYogzototh should play a few games. For SCIENCE!
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