I think it's a pretty commonly held view that skirmisher and skirmisher-like units are dominating ZK at the moment. In particular, the skirmishers with some guarantee of hitting the enemy and with longer range. More particularly, Wolverine/Scalpel/Firewalker. Firewalker I find the least objectionable of these three. It's much easier to pick off the higher-weight Firewalker, it fills a previously crippling hole in Jumpfac, the fire is less oppressive than walls of Wolverine mines. A good unit but it is not as meta-warping. Rocko and Rogue on the other hand seem really bad at the moment. They get crushed by all the above skirmishers and don't really have any compensating strengths. IMO Recluse is a lot better than the current Rocko and Rogue. Longer range, all-terrain (yes it makes a difference) and it's in the same factory as Venom. I suppose the questions are "do you agree?" and "is it a problem?". Personally I find it tedious to lose games slowly to inexorable Scalpel or Wolverine balls. Factories with suitable artillery and airswitch offers some counterplay but...
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I never complain about OP things that I like to abuse, only things that I hate like when ravens were OP. So my answer is this: Wolverines are totally fine! They are extremely well balanced at the moment, don't nerf them!
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I think the problem is not in the individual unit per se but Scalpel and Wolvervine once they reach a certain critical size depend on map size they shut down even raider which supposed to hard counter them. I think the problem is their long range plus tracking make them invulnerable to raider once critical mass was archived. [the overkill prevention gadget is buffing scalpel somewhat I think] But I am not very sure
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The other observation I would make about wolverine/scalpel is that they aren't even stopped by heavy porc really, since their facs have some of the most effective long-range artillery for dealing with statics (impaler/pene).
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The problem is between the keyboard and the chair. In ZK's midgame and beyond, the better player is always the player who can resist the intimidation of a skirmisher projectile death-wall, followed by zerging the skirmisher-blob with a micro'd raider-ball worth half the metal.
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...no? As far as I know a large scalpel-blob will take an absolute dump on a raider ball of approximately equal cost, and certainly will if you mix in a mace or two to clean up stragglers. As for wolverines, the raiders won't even get into range... What you say is true of rocko and rogue, which is why they're shitty and nobody builds them any more.
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I mostly agree with the OP. While the earlygame is often raider-heavy, both mid- and lategame seem to be pretty much about who has more and better skirmishers. Regular skirms lose to Scalpel, which loses to Wolv, which loses to Firewalker and eventually, once the game is entrenched enough, more or less everything loses to a well protected Catapult. I've never been a fan of the skirmisher game much. Assaults, riots, raiders provide more direct action, while with skirmishers it's all about avoiding getting hit while slowly chipping away at the enemy.
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volverines OP? they have almost 0 HP so 2 phoenixes completely wipe the whole squad of them same/worse is about Firewalker and silo I gotta agree about scalpel, it's becoming a new meta - scalpel monospam
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Scissor is by far the worst. Wolverine can make the game painful to watch or play, but it's fragile, and Firewalker is snipable due to high weight. I've done some comparing of Scissor to Moderator. Both have 10s reload, but Scissor is cheaper, faster, tankier(!), has more range, damage and aoe(!!!). Some of this should go. The list of bss here is incomplete. I would add Buoy, and technically Felon is just as superbad, but it's such a long accepted kind of superbad that noone even considers Felon being part of the standard RPS. Buoy isn't as bad as fw/wolverine/scissor. I can imagine contingencies for most of these things. Scissor could lose tracking efficiency or AoE. Buoy could lose projectile speed or slow (and gain damage?). Firewalker could have a higher arc, nerfing its leveler sidearm while not harming its shield-busting sidearm. Wolverine though, i have no idea. But then in low-medium densities, Wolverines aren't that invulnerable to raiders; they become invulnerable largely not because of mines and long range, but because they fuel porc/arty standoffs, and they're superb in those situations (until Firewalker, of course). Buoys aren't that nasty either, but i dislike how they make the raider/skirmisher situation soft. I like the hard counter raiders provide against the normal skirmishers.
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I think Buoy (and Grizzly) aren't quite in the same category. With their low speed and high HP I think of them as hybrid assault-skirms. I suppose Wolverine and Firewalker are hybrid artillery-skirms for that matter. Felon consuming its own (temporary) HP is its weakness. I'd like to see Scalpel have slightly less range such that Rocko/Rogue can at least pretend to compete, and less AoE. Wolverine could simply have less damage and/or lower duration on Claws.
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quote: I think Buoy (and Grizzly) aren't quite in the same category. With their low speed and high HP I think of them as hybrid assault-skirms |
No objection with Grizzly, which fails to raiders when unprotected handily. Buoys are a different case in that they reliably kill amounts of raiders which would mince other non-bullshit skirmishers, e.g. rocko/rogue/recluse/moderator, even domi. Domi is borderline "skirmisher" too, but it's such an outsider that nobody cares.
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The Rogue still has its place, albeit less so now the other skirmishers are so good. The Rocko is pretty limp. Accurate skirmishers are horrible.
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+ skirm power rankings + the only skirms that are good are the ones that aren't true skirms + the role of skirm has a very small window in which to operate effectively + 'true' skirmishers actually might need a buff + skirms are accessible and disproportionately effective for newer players + the issue of big teams clogged with skirms could be addressed by buffing phoenix + we should also consider teaching players how to deal with scalpel/wolverine [Spoiler] "Skirmishers" in order of power/usefulness (according to me obviously): - scalpel - wolverine - firewalker - sharpshooter - pene - buoy - rogue - rocko - moderator - recluse
Some are difficult to place above others, but I think this is a pretty decent list.
Of those mentioned, I consider the bottom four average or worse. People are calling buoy OP but I don't see it. Pene and sharp-shooter are great at what they do but are suitably fragile and clumsy. Firewalker (and sharp-shooter)counter almost everything else on the list hard.
Wolverine are good, but IMO well balanced since nerf. Require understanding to counter though.
Scalpel is the only one I think is OP, and even then, considering the impotent raider game that hover needs to sit through I'd say only just a little bit too powerful (and only in teams).
IMO the role of skirmisher can only impact on the game within a limited window. After the raider game is ended but before skirmishers are hard countered. Before this point there is no opportunity for them to attain the density to survive raiders, and afterwards stuff like crabe, grizzly, firewalker, wyvern, pillager, thunderbird, cloaked roaches, striders etc. all put an end to them well and truly.
Of the units listed above, it's not until you go all the way down the list and get to buoy that you see a 'true' skirmisher. All of the others have some sort of mechanic that make it more than just a skirm. Everything below buoy is a true skirmisher (with possible exception of moderator having 100% accuracy instagib). It's as if the role on its own is weak until something is added (if you accept my skirm order).
I'd like to see some buffs to the bottom four in particular (rogue, rocko, recluse, moderator). I'd like to see a small nerf for scalpel to make it worse against raiders.
To address the OP, I think the nature of mixing the roles of the top two units (wolverine and scalpel) is the problem, especially in teams. Less able players aren't able to address the specific weakness of these units (since they break unit role logic), and therefore any low skill player using these units is elevated to the equivalent of intermediate (beats noobs, loses to advanced players). No matter who uses these units, they pose a real threat that can only be countered by an able player who diverts both attention and resources to it. This means that the attention of the carry players is necessarily diverted to nullify this threat, which means the skirm wielding noob is punching far above their weight a lot of the time. I believe this is the reason the teams room is so dominated by skirms, not because of some actual real imbalance. I think this could largely be addressed indirectly through buffing phoenix. We could also try to teach people how to deal with these units?
Edit: apparently even buoy is considered assault/skirm, making the list actually pretty clear cut. True skirmishers are all bad, and mixed skirmishers are potentially too good.
Also, scissor seems like a way better name for scalpel. or even secateur?
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quote: - scalpel - wolverine - firewalker - sharpshooter - pene - buoy - rogue - rocko - moderator - recluse
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I rate rogue over bouy, and I don't think Pene fits in this list, but agree.
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I swear I saw someone refer to it as a skirmisher in this very thread... but now can't find it. Probably referred to as a counter to skirm... nvm. Agreed it's more of an artillery (as is firewalker IMO). Rogue over buoy huh? Interesting. I personally think rogue is the definition of an average unit. I rate buoy very slightly above average, but I know a lot of people think it well above average.
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Against heavy units it (Pene) pretty much is a skirmisher. Totally skirmishes tanks and striders for example. The nice thing about Rogue is the range which allows it kill certain things with impunity (the super obnoxious Buoy for example, or LLTs).
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quote: + the issue of big teams clogged with skirms could be addressed by buffing phoenix |
:D
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For Wolverine: shorten range so it's pure skirm, not skirm/arty. Increase firing-delay on mines so fast raiders and scouts can run through minefields. If this makes it UP, buff damage-output. For Scalpel: remove blast-radius, increase alpha, decrease missile flight-fuel. Then it's more feasible for fast units to draw their fire away and leave them vulnerable. Buoy: slower projectile... Maybe turret speed? But that could kill its ability to kite... But it's so slow it can barely kite anyways. Perhaps it should deploy on land as it does in water, like a slasher? Then it could have a very slow bad-vs-raiders turret.
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