Wth happened to the USA, the country to be looked up to. Country that now decides to hold people without trial, to spy and collect communication of entire world, to do cyberattacks around world, to invade countries on false pretext, cover-up war crimes, protect its own crimininals if they are military (the cable cabin incident in Italy), wiretap allies (EU wiretapping/spying revealed by Snowden). And instead of trying to fix these things when one guys reveals some, state and media go on witch-hunt. USA is even willing to punish entire country for providing asylum to Snowden (threats to Ecuador). The amount of complacency and self-censorship is alarming too, there is no report about EU spying in major US newspapers while it's headlines in european news. Instead of being example to the world of a country with morals, USA has become declining empire with self-centered and strictly pragmatic policies worse than China. How did this happen?
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It's been happening for decades, where have you been, it was obvious from bush's first term and if you were really paying attention you could see it go back much further than that, to the cold war and before. America has always been founded on a bunch of really good ideas, it's constitution and bill of rights are enviable, but the practice has almost never held up to the ideals (Slavery and no women's suffrage even in the time these documents were written). They've always been hypocrites. It's just a damn shame that it's so damn obvious now, that they can't even pretend when preaching to the new ascending superpowers that they're morally superior. I don't know if we should be thankful that they're on the decline because China is not much better. All we can hope is that they're not as imperialistic.
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What amazes me is not all NSA crap and other shit from USA which from time to time floats to surface, but people who are surprised and honestly think that USA is "example" or "good" country. Honestly are all you stupid or what? USA is one of the most corrupted country in the world, the fact that politicians can be backed by companies alone says just how horrible it is. Not talking about "peace" through wars or whole "terrorism" bullshit.
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In 1999 there's a game called Deus Ex. It says American government use a computer network called "Echelon" to gather information from its citizen.
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When USA bent the rules its preaching during cold war, it was more understandable to me, that were dangerous times. But now? World is much much safer place there is no need to use dirty tactics everywhere...   xponen thats hardly shocking as echelon is/was real system that was known since 70's
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They were always corrupt but went insane after 9/11 (unredacted lol something the US should learn to do better)
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USA was intensively microing those planes, and they unfortunately "accidentally" hit ctrl+d while those towers were selected :)
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quote:
The amount of complacency and self-censorship is alarming too, there is no report about EU spying in major US newspapers while it's headlines in european news. |
Conspiracies of silence are always organized by society, not state.
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All major powers are and will always be corrupt, some less, some more. You look at history or the present world, in the big scheme of things it's the same. Honestly, the situation in China or Russia is several times worse. But nobody really cares what they are up to. Hell, most people even have no idea what they're up to cause of all the secrecy and censoring. At least with USA most of the crap will get figured out, because the whole world is keeping an eye on them, plus the society is not as closed as that of Russia/China. But like I said, every big country will have some levels of this kind of crap in it. It's not really surprising. "Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Great men are almost always bad men." - Lord Acton.
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Did you know the term "terrorism" originates from states terrorizing its citizen? Did you know the term "copyright" originates from states handing out rights to print books so as to better enforce censorship? Personally I think the problem is not "power" but "responsibility". Though maybe these two words are interchangable here. Some people simply have a lot of responsibility. Too much for them to comprehend and thus deal with in a correct manner.
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Reading this topic feels like listening to 80 year olds. Sorry guys. It's not to say i don't agree with you, but it's 100% unproductive to gossip around. If you want to make a difference you should probably consider joining http://www.avaaz.org/ or similar campaigns. I have yet to see a political/social system that takes into consideration that we are, in fact, humans. We are so easily manipulated when it comes to making decisions that any system relying on humans deciding about their own affairs is bound to, at some point, be faced with corruption. Or somebody gaining power through manipulating people. Even here in Germany, the thought alone that the people i see on the street have (the main) political influence makes me not want to vote. Elections shouldn't be about manipulating people to vote for you, but this is all it boils down to. Sure, there are people who care about politics and make educated decisions, but the average person doesn't care and happily votes whatever promises the most. Election posters rarely contain any political content here: At best you have a bad pun, at worst you just have "vote xyz" and maybe a picture of a politician. Look into the manifestos of the parties and you see loads of mentions of savings, but good luck finding where anybody wants to save. You can promise anything you want, you're not bound to (even try to) implement it. We have to deal with the fact that people are just people. The bigger your power, the bigger is moral relativity. More people making decisions abuse how brains work to manipulate them. Less people corruption.
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simple, after the cold war ended, russia reformed itself into more awsomness menwhile in the usa: buisness as usual
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I like how no Americans have spoken up in this thread yet :P @MauranKilom: your description of the German political campaigning is pretty similar to ours, except the worst case scenarios are politicians severely stretching the truth and digging up any possible kind of dirt on their opponents for horrendously tacky and offensive mudslinging. Republicans and Democrats are two faces of the same coin, but most people pick sides anyway because "if you're not with us, you're against us" and smaller, niche parties don't have enough influence to win -- they can only pull votes from the "most similar" candidate which is why I think more people don't go independent, because at least they can vote for the lesser of two evils. As far as the decline of the "moral America": There have always been issues and atrocities that have directly contradicted our founding fathers' ideals, and every day politicians slowly chip away at the vigilance of the population. Bills that are found to be unconstitutional or are otherwise struck down are immediately re-introduced with minor, less dramatic changes which are slowly more intrusive and evil over time. The story of the boiling frog pretty much sums it up.
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quote:
When USA bent the rules its preaching during cold war, it was more understandable to me, that were dangerous times.
But now? World is much much safer place there is no need to use dirty tactics everywhere...
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This quote illustrates why you will always fail to comprehend the important role that USA plays in the stability of our era. 1) The world is not safer, it is far more dangerous. A militarily superior China and nuclear armed North Korea and Islamists are an outrageously higher risk to well-being of humanity than a Soviet/USA standoff. That's a topic for a whole other discussion or thread or forum. 2) You reveal that when you were directly involved (cold war - your country suffering under communist rule), you find it "understandable" for America to go to great lengths to dominate its ideological enemies. When the nature of the threat is no longer in your backyard, you don't find it understandable. Step back and judge yourself first. Considering the perils of the 20th century and the toll it took on Europe, it has not grown stronger. Just know that over here, we see you as the fools who have learned nothing. It's too late now, even if you made a complete 180. No country is perfect, but there's a reason that those entrusted with national security get into serious trouble for betraying their country and pissing all over their sworn duties. What is new here?
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Actually nukes are best peace keepers. Nobody gonna nuke anybody because even not so big nuclear country nuclear war would mean world end there was study somewhere how much nukes are needed for nuclear winter cant remember how much but the fact was no USA China or Russia involvment is needed. http://www.treehugger.com/clean-technology/regional-nuclear-war-could-create-the-mother-of-all-ozone-holes.htmlAnd all that antimuslim hate which is coming from USA is just because they have OIL, honestly there is africans who kill each other and nobody wanna make peace here just because there is no oil, so... I m sorry Carp but your brain was washed out. Like somebody said first was God was Jesus then TV and when TV lost its power in USA they created new god its terrorism.
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So NSA spies through people with the help of big tech companies like Microsoft and Google. Everyone is mad. But are they mad enough to stop using those products? Probably not. Everyone will eventually forget they were mad and being spied upon will be the expected norm. Nothing will change.
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People are not mad, they just slightly dislike it. Just press try's to draw it that way. I would be like zomg surprised if they wouldn't have spied that would be just plain stupid from government view.
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Aye lads… the world is as big a mess today as it was a thousand years ago except now it`s a lot harder to run, hide, or fight back… The thing is, you see, all in the mind, society is a purely imaginary construct … But that`d be too long a tale so let me just tell ye the abridged version: those that came before us made a system where the ultimate form of power is wealth, then gave a select few an infinite money cheat with zero accountability, and if ye aren’t bright enough to see why this be a bad idea, ye aint worth bein told. Things could change for the better, But if I where (still) a gambin man I wouldn’t trust such odds with a penny, Psychological insulation lads and lasses, making a soul feel alone even in a sea of people caught in the same hole, “divide and conquer” as they say, applied to the individual level, keeps people feeling powerless and fearful, keeps them manageable. Then there`s also the automation of the military, once automation and AI make it possible for a select few to effectively control most military forces along with the economic infrastructure “the people” will no longer be needed, and will no longer be able to do anything about it. Addendum: As for the “morality” of the U.S. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trail_of_tearshttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuskegee_syphilis_experimentAnd the list can go on and on….
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CarRapper is right, the world is a hell of a lot more dangerous. USA is spying on all of us and has much much much more military power now than 50 years ago. How can you say that is not dangerous, Licho?? Also CarRaperer is right with the betrayal thing. It's really crazy how heads of US security can swear an oath and break it, telling lies to the US Congress, without any penalty. You're a good man highlighting those issues, CR. Suddenly I'm really proud of ZK admins.
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