On Medium & Light Tanks

The cloaky and shield bot factories are designed excellently. They have a well-developed and flexible set of tools and can play in a wide variety of different ways. However the vehicle factories seem to be in a bit of a rough state by comparison. Their play tends to be highly standardized, and also somewhat unstable due to reliance on one unit type or upon a very small number of expensive units.


LIGHT VEHICLE FACTORY

The light vehicle factory is viable to play in 1v1, but it certainly feels like the Ravager factory most of the time. The Ravager is a fast assault unit with decent HP and damage for a reasonable price, which really is too appealing to pass up in the context of the light vehicle factory. There's nothing imbalanced about the unit, but it is the primary fixture of the light vehicle factory.


HEAVY TANK FACTORY

The heavy tank factory has the different, but related issue, of not having sufficiently inexpensive units to open in a small game. In team games it is possible to open with a big unit like a Banisher, but this doesn't fundamentally change the dynamic of the factory. You are highly dependent on the first unit or two you produce. In 1v1 this will be highly dependent on your early raid using your first couple Kodachis or Panthers.

The units in the heavy tank factory are all expensive, which makes it a specialist factory which is great for support. But it is not very strong to open with in small games, especially compared to cloaky or shield bots.


IDEA

1) Move Ravager to the heavy tank factory. This will give the heavy tank factory a cheaper main combat unit, without needing to power out big units in the very early game. And because it would be the cheapest main combat unit in the heavy tank factory, building it in quantity is to be expected.

2) Move the Panther to the light vehicle factory. The Panther is in most respects a light tank, not a medium-ish assault tank like the Ravager. The Panther is also in a marginally higher weight class than the Ravager, at 300 metal per Panther, and would give the light vehicle factory some more direct punch later on in a game, without devolving to a Ravager monoculture. The Panther chases down light units and skirmishers for the LV factory, a role which the Ravager currently performs for the LV factory, even if it does not excel at it.

3) Add a light main combat tank to the light vehicle factory. This would be similar to the Ravager, but faster and with less HP. I am imagining a less chunky Ravager with a gauss. Like a heavily armored Scrubber. This tank would let the light vehicle factory assault defensive positions with a mobile unit, and because it is lighter it should not monopolize the light vehicle factory's play like the Ravager does.

This effectively splits the light vehicle factory's Ravager into two units; the Panther and the new light tank. While the heavy tank factory gets a cheaper main battle tank that it can use in the early game, and which can be used in quantity in the middle and late game.


TL;DR

1) Move Ravager to heavy tank factory.
2) Move Panther to light vehicle factory.
3) Add a new light tank to light vehicle factory which is a lighter main combat unit, taking the LV Ravager's assault function without dominating the factory.

Agree about the problem, disagree about the solution. Ravagers are too generalist when they reach a decent mass... but nerfing them is heresy because they're so damned fun, and moving them to the heavy tank lab doesn't fix this.

Heavy Tanks' problems as a starting/1v1 lab are legion and the Ravager does not begin to solve them. I don't think anybody starting heavy tanks ever thought "I wish I had a lightweight assault tank".

I suppose the intent is that the Koda and Welders are supposed to provide you with enough area-control and riot-power until you can get out a Banisher... but I've never had good luck with Banishers. Or defensive usage of Kodas for that matter.

I like the idea of a cost drop for Welder but it is already a really powerful unit. We would probably have to drop it's BP to 5 as well as reduced HP.

Vehicles are not just Ravager spam. Dart is a great scout, Scorcher are good raiders. Slasher + Dominatrix seems to be a problem at the moment. If you get enough of an overall economic advantage it is extremely easy to make a Ravager blob and win that way but I don't think it is absolutely the best way.

Spring 95.0+ has much better movement behaviour so it should be possible to increase turning circles on vehicles and reduce their acceleration without making them annoying to use. I would like look at doing these things as nerfs because it differentiates them from bot movement.

We should look at returning to the old values, before borked pathing.

Heavy Tank factory was not intended to be a viable start factory, but there were some unique ways to play it offered by the Welder and my addition of a lighter Koda that made it very interesting, and my last buff to the raiders in the factory is meant to make it more viable while preserving it's distinct playstyle.

Tank is meant to depend on it's unkillable constructor expand and it's heavy raiders that can be kept alive until it can ramp up enough economy to field a big unit. That's it's whole strategy, and it's fun and interesting to play. Once you get a Reaper or Banisher, good micro can often win the game.

I prefer where Koda is now balance-wise, but the real problem with Panthers is that they stack best with other Panthers, where you can do Perma-stun run-by's. They don't fit with the rest of the factory playstyle or in synergy. So maybe this offers tank a second kind of transition into the midgame other than rushing a heavy, or even allows them to spam pure Panther and get a ball rolling instead of starting Koda. Maybe we can buff it into a state where it's usable this way, but I'd worry that it would become a mono-culture or even 'the' way to play Tank. I just think that's less interesting than how tank plays now, but we could try.

Well, I think the intent is that the Welder provides the riot-power. So to me, the obvious solution is to push the Welder further into a riot-role. Buff its weapon, nerf its health, make sure that it can stand up to more raiders. Maybe swap out the pew-pew for something with better riot characteristics, but this might not really be necessary.

Then you don't have to cut the Welder's cost - riot-welders are more capable of doing naked-expands, which lets the Tank lab use Welders as the backbone of their opening force, plus a small Koda force to help "rescue" the welders that get overwhelmed or face Skirmishers.

The second problem with naked Welder expand is that welders can't repair themselves. If you sent out a Riot and a con separately, the con could fix the riot. The welder can't. And welders are too slow to come to each other's assistance - at the early-game, the welder must work without other welders during the naked-expand-phase.

Now, the health-attrition of the naked welders could be considered a feature and not a bug.

But if it's something that needs correcting? I see two possibilities.

1) Give the Welder an idle-only regen (no moving, no working) to represent self-repair. I don't like this, the Welder doesn't need another "power", especially something as hard to see as self-repairing.

2) Zany Neonstorm idea: Give one of the raiders a weak nanolathe. This would allow the raider to (a) repair damaged Welders, and (b) reclaim in areas that are too far for the sluggish Welders to reach. We have a similar pattern in the Jumpy lab where it's difficult to cover much ground with Freakers so the Puppy helps pick up the slack.

Alternate approach, related to the discussion above about Levelers:

The Leveler and the Banisher are both tied to their labs - the models have tracks/wheels and that's not negotiable.

But that does create an interesting possibility. This might be a bit extreme but: Swap the stats of the Banisher and Leveler. Just scale the models up/down. Make the Banisher perform like a Leveler, and make the Leveler into a massive Banisher-scale unit. This way the LVeh lab isn't completely reliant on the Samtruck to provide riot-power - it has the giant brobdagnagian mega-riot in the Leveler/Banisher. It also means there's one heavyweight vehicle, just for funsies.

Meanwhile, the cute little nimble Leveler-banisher becomes part of the backbone of Heavy Tank gameplay.

Now, obviously you'd have to make the mini-Banisher weaker than the current Leveler, and the mega-Leveler stronger than the current Banisher - an arcing super-accurate missile is a more versatile weapon than a straight-fire cannon, and the stats should reflect this.

But otherwise? Swap them. The LV doesn't need a light riot because it has the Slasher. The Tank lab could absolutely use one.

Give Panther the ability to make "mex only" (only 2-3 build power, but 4-8 with 2)

+ they don't need to return to base for repair (more mobile, less micro-heavy)
+ can suck some reclaim. Not very fast, but enough to steal something before the reinforcements and reclaimers arive
+ they can support constructors while you can't use them (facing Stinger, Assaults) - less of a risk to make a few.

no, it shouldn't replace welder, only support expanding (mexes) and be usefull after the enemy made assaults to counter Panthers.

i dont like panthers and never use them. i cannot see a true benefit or maybe i fail hard using it successful. i would not miss it.

I think just looking at the panther and adding a weakness to the ravager that dosn't detract from its strengths would solve the issue pretty tidy like.