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Map: Red Comet
 Red Comet
Title: CLAN WARS - TO ARMS!!
Host: CZrankSpringiee14
Game version: Zero-K v1.3.8.3
Engine version: 100.0
Battle ID: 369052
Started: 9 years ago
Duration: 14 minutes
Players: 4
Bots: False
Mission: False
Rating: Casual
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Team 1
Chance of victory: 27.7%

ATrankhokomoko
GBrank[GBC]Fred
Team 2
Chance of victory: 72.3%

AUrankAdminGoogleFrog
AUrankAdminAquanim
Spectators
PLrankAdminSprung
Skasi
SErankcleanrock
CArankAdminShadowfury333
CHrankivand
ESrankElTorero
ATrankMeep
DErankJulian123
RUrank[V]Aneque
DErankChesti
DErankKlon
PLrankOrfelius
USrankkaen

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CArankAdminShadowfury333
9 years ago
Casted on YouTube.

Aug 8th Clanwars, Game 2.
+2 / -0

AUrankSnuggleBass
9 years ago
Replay corrupt?
+0 / -0


CArankAdminShadowfury333
9 years ago
(edited 9 years ago)
Yeah, it appears to be corrupt (probably 0kb). Ugh, I thought that issue was over.

Given that it seems to only happen to tournaments and clan wars games, maybe the issue is with whatever bots are spawned for private games.
+1 / -0

PLrankAdminSprung
9 years ago
Maybe it's because clan wars and tourneys are played by our most powerful players? Power corrupts.
+0 / -0


USrank[GBC]1v0ry_k1ng
9 years ago
good play. Scalpel monoculture.
+1 / -0


AUrankAdminGoogleFrog
9 years ago
Economy miscommunication here. I expected to be able to spam scalpels with no workers while Aquamim expanded bottom. GBC did something similar but had the correct start spots for their factories. So the victory was quite economic.

Main main goal with the Eraser was to make my Penetrator able to kill and not be killed by other Penetators. I did not have the energy for it though which was an issue.

There were a lot of Scalepls. Not sure if it is a monoculute. It is a unit which feels powerful to use although the Halberds and defenses really do well against them.
+0 / -0

AUrankSnuggleBass
9 years ago
(edited 9 years ago)
Scalpels are very good, but I can't see them being monoculture any time soon. Their role disallows it.

Edit: I guess I can see them being made in every game, but not as the only thing that is made.
+0 / -0

EErank[ISP]Lauri
9 years ago
quote:
Their role disallows it.

What do you mean by that?
+0 / -0

AUrankSnuggleBass
9 years ago
I momentarily conflated monospam with monoculture, though even then the two terms are still fuzzy to me.

By their role not allowing it, essentially I meant to say that skirmishers pretty much by definition can't monospam from a fac until a certain point (when it's no longer required to maintain a presence pressuring opponent's expansion). Any game where a team only makes scalpels will convert into a pretty easy win for skilled opponents. The raider role allows for a playstyle that is entirely composed of it, even though it drops off eventually.
+0 / -0


EErankAdminAnarchid
9 years ago
(edited 9 years ago)
quote:
skirmishers pretty much by definition can't monospam

I would say that perfect-accuracy flex-aa skirmishers are an exception, however queasy.

Scalpel, Moderator, Dominatrix, even Buoy can be pretty monospammy. Sharpshooter to some extent.
+1 / -0

EErank[ISP]Lauri
9 years ago
I've played against literal Scalpel monoculture. The one that skips all raiders and just starts making them from minute 1. I think it's fairly strong in some matchups (like against tank), although probably not optimal.

I'd rather have 1 Mace and 1 Halberd + a bazillion minus three Scalpels than just a bazillion Scalpels. I'd also rather make 2 Daggers instead of 0 in the beginning. Does this mean I'd not be engaging in Scalpel monospam? I'd still call it monospam, it's close enough.
+0 / -0

AUrankSnuggleBass
9 years ago
While the percentile seems insignificant, the difference between not having to make any decisions about units past scalpel, and applying a schmattering here and there when approriate, is pretty big.

However, it really seems like we're talking definitions rather than practice, though I will give you that some maps and some opposing facs certainly encourage scalpel monospam to the point where it infringes even on the intention behind my initial statement.
+0 / -0


USrank[GBC]1v0ry_k1ng
9 years ago
(edited 9 years ago)
The thing with the scalpel is that it is specialised - it has some hard counters, and there are some roles it doesn't fulfil well.

The other thing with the scalpel is that outside of those limitations it is really really good, I'd say much more useful than its peers like Rocko, Rogue, Slasher and Recluse.
+0 / -0

EErank[ISP]Lauri
9 years ago
(edited 9 years ago)
What would those hard counters be? Firewalker and Blastwing I would agree with, but regular skirmisher counters like raiders are completely ineffective. Their generalist nature is the reason they are so spammable.
+0 / -0
GBrankTheSponge
9 years ago
The only things other than a very few specialized units that can effectively counter scalpels have to do it from outside their range. A large scalpel ball can smash just about anything that gets in range and if you kite you will take minimal losses.
+0 / -0


USrank[GBC]1v0ry_k1ng
9 years ago
(edited 9 years ago)
Cloaky: low density

glaivespam, high density

cloaker + tick

Shield: low density

wasting shots with Dbag. high density

shieldball

Jumper: low density

black hole, high density

firewalker

Amph: low density

duck, high density

bouy & Grizzly

Lveh: low density

wasting shots with dart & wolverine, high density

shit tonne of ravager

Hveh: low density

reaper, Pillager high density

Golly (both can do just fine with management and repair)
+1 / -0

EErank[ISP]Lauri
9 years ago
(edited 9 years ago)
Glaives and Ducks only really work if the Scalpel player is bad or misplays. Scalpels generally laugh at raiders as long as they don't get Thuderbirded or wander off too far from friendly porc.
+1 / -0
GBrankTheSponge
9 years ago
quote:
high density = shieldball

With micro you can kill the real threats just by getting under the aspis.

quote:
Lveh: low density

wasting shots with dart & wolverine, high density

shit tonne of ravager

Ravagers get kited and can't realistically win for cost without surrounding the scalpels. Wrecks breaking pathing is also a problem.

quote:
Hveh: low density

reaper, Pillager high density

Golly (both can do just fine with management and repair)

Reapers and goliaths get kited. Pillagers can work for cost as long as the scalpels are not too aggressive.
+1 / -0

AUrankAdminAquanim
9 years ago
(edited 9 years ago)
When thinking about what beats Scalpel you also have to take into account that the hover player can add a Penetrator or two without much difficulty. In particular it is a good answer to Wolverine (running Halberds in is also good but not always advisable). Also quite reasonable against a shieldball.
+1 / -0

AUrankSnuggleBass
9 years ago
quote:
Cloaky: low density

glaivespam, high density

cloaker + tick

Shield: low density

wasting shots with Dbag. high density

shieldball

Jumper: low density

black hole, high density

firewalker

Amph: low density

duck, high density

bouy & Grizzly

Lveh: low density

wasting shots with dart & wolverine, high density

shit tonne of ravager

Hveh: low density

reaper, Pillager high density

Golly (both can do just fine with management and repair)


I mostly agree with this. I'd be surprised if duck or buoy did consistently well though. Ravager ball is... Very risky and I wouldn't recommend.

AUrankAdminAquanim is right the next part of the comp is pene and it adds a lot of pain. A single mace, and maybe some halbards for screening and you've got a very difficult comp to handle.
+0 / -0