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Less overdrive on low E

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8 years ago
DESCRIPTION: Could overdrive be changed, so that there is less energy (E) spent on overdrive (OD), when player is low on energy?

EXAMPLE: I lost a game, because I could not use spy early game to stun enemy com: spy uses lots of E when moving, so I have to wait a bit to buffer E, so it would not decloack on the way. However, the process is slow, because E is used for OD. This logic of more E for moving ruins OD logic of "spare energy" (more E produced) in short term.

CODE: Currently it is linear:
energyForOverdrive = energySpare * (energyCurrent/energyMax)
This means, if player has only e.g. 25% of E, it saves 75% of E for storage, and spends 25% of E on OD.

SOURCE CODE LINK: https://github.com/ZeroK-RTS/Zero-K/blob/f19752998e96a8fe01a3de75b36ed0d6d0ed8e5d/LuaRules/Gadgets/unit_mex_overdrive.lua#L1020

SUGGESTED SOLUTION: use squared value (idea suggested by Skasi in zero-k chat):
energyRatio = energyCurrent/energyMax
energyForOverdrive = energySpare * energyRatio * energyRatio
WHY: it saves more E when on low E, e.g. 1/4 of E (25%) means 1/16 for OD (6%), but when on high E, not much difference, e.g. 90% originally changes to 81% new, for 100% it doesn't change (all E used for OD).
+3 / -0
Skasi
To add to this:
Consider metal storage/production/waste before overdrive. Metal production after overdrive should probably not exceed energy production if there is more metal than energy in storage.

Example of currently possible bad extreme case:
Overdrive can be active while a team is wasting metal while not wasting energy.
+1 / -0
8 years ago
Wasn't there this obscure way of allocating a certain amount of storage for high priority stuff (for instance, cloaking)?
+1 / -0
Skasi
8 years ago
Yes there's an option for minimal energy or metal storage (Ctrl+LMB on resource bar to set one resource, Ctrl+RMB to set both), but that's not what this topic is about.
+0 / -0

8 years ago
This is why I'd rather just see energy storage removed from the game, rather than increasing complexity. Energy in - energy out = overdrive. Simple. If you don't make enough energy? You can't run your cloaker, instead of "OMG the energy AI is too dumb to optimize for my needs!"
+3 / -0
Several weeks ago i built 13 or 17 or 21 singularity reactors, and effect of each reactor waas significant.

But wtf now after about 5 singus effect of additional ones is almost zero?
+0 / -0
Skasi
8 years ago
RUrankHuj, wrong thread. Go read changelogs. :P
(OD formula was changed and investment return lowered)
+0 / -0
8 years ago
@Pxlt with that logic, you would have to delete metal storage as well, and together it would change gameplay completely.

Now game mechanics allow to use stored M (metal) and E to suddenly rush DDM near base that's overrun, one example for all. It would also disallow Kyubey rushing stardust in your base. It's simply more natural and more fun with capacity.

You seem to forget, E is not used only for cloacking, but also for building, radar, shields, ...

Note that shields have no priority, so you would E-stall and stop production without E storage, completely, which would suck big time.
+0 / -0
RUrankHuj blame comunists, zk communism was changed so basically no metal is given back to the builders of energy structures (i know it sux, this is why no one eco anymore)

SKrankSvatopluk reserve energy is my friend, is it yours>?

CArankPxtl you clearly never used cloaky shit that takes 25e/s when you have 15e/s e income, in those time energy storage is a lifesaver since 500e/10 is 25-50 seconds of cloak (ie the difference between skittle and no skittle)
+0 / -0
8 years ago
GBrankKyubey Yes, energy reserve is indeed my friend. I would add example - if enemy rushes dante, it takes two spies (560M) to counter if left alone and lucky, but without E reserve, it would need almost a fusion (another 1000M), which is silly. 2x spy moving = -24E

Not to mention strategies like fast heavy tanks repair - drains E storage fast, without storage it takes forever. Another example - licho repair for air player.
+1 / -0
8 years ago
Skasi you are right that overdrive should be turned off if metal full and energy low, however my suggested solution for E storage issue would partially help your issue as well: in your picture example, it seems 25% E storage (1/4), if squared it's only 1/16 so OD would be not 4E but only 1E
+0 / -0

8 years ago
quote:
so basically no metal is given back to the builders of energy structures

Uh, no? You just don't get any extra over your teammates, but building energy structures still means your income increases (assuming you OD).
+0 / -0
quote:
Note that shields have no priority, so you would E-stall and stop production without E storage, completely, which would suck big time.

Large shields that drain E have priority (except Comm).

quote:
CODE: Currently it is linear:
energyForOverdrive = energySpare * (energyCurrent/energyMax)
This means, if player has only e.g. 25% of E, it saves 75% of E for storage, and spends 25% of E on OD.

It spends the energy left after expenses on OD.

If you have more expenses (like on Spy cloak) than income there will be no overdrive at all. This means that if you start with full storage and then suddenly start losing E because of spies then OD is never going to do anything. The only case where OD hurts is filling the storage back afterwards.

quote:
Overdrive can be active while a team is wasting metal while not wasting energy.

It also has a requirement of stalling BP. If your economy is terrible enough to stall both E and BP then the little bit of wasted OD metal is not really a problem.

Also, in a team game the excess metal spills over to allies anyway.
+0 / -0
8 years ago
PLrankAdminSprung if large shields have priority, it must be recent change. I clearly remember loosing game because my shield drained all E and I could not produce or build anything. Anyway, it was just one of examples for E storage importance. But for shields E storage is still important, if you attack with full shields and drain suddenly, it helps a lot to have some E stored, so that they can recharge fast.
+1 / -0

8 years ago
I think PLrankAdminSprung is right.

The notion of "energySpare" is what is left after expenses, not the current level of E in storage. This is called "energyCurrent" I guess.
+0 / -0
SKrankSvatopluk you have poor arguments for why energy storage is good. You are arguing from the point of view of a player with a local problem in the middle of a game. Your examples are about how it helps that player do the tactics that they want to do or help them in some other way.

A game mechanic should be judged on whether it is good for the game. Not whether a player in a situation finds it useful. The fact that people find uses for a mechanic is a point for its inclusion, provided that they had a choice. Your points for energy storage can often be turned into good points. In general it has many uses and does not seem to be OP. Removing energy storage also has benefits. I am not sure which is better or whether it is currently possible to remove.

Simple, controllable, solution to OP. New equation:
energyForOverdrive = max{0, energySpare * (energyCurrent - reservSetting)/(energyMax - reservSetting)}

With the edge cases 0/0

1 and x/0

0 for x < 0

This seems ok technically and matches the intention of the reserve setting. I am not sure how it affects the intra-team resource conflict in teamgames.
+1 / -0
RUrankHuj
8 years ago
GF, how about draining a bit of E which is in storages (upkeep-like)?
+0 / -0
quote:
> so basically no metal is given back to the builders of energy structures

Uh, no? You just don't get any extra over your teammates, but building energy structures still means your income increases (assuming you OD).

Both are wrong. You do get extra metal over teammates and RoI still exists: you get a 50% refund for your energy structures.

There's a "RoI Tracker" widget which you can enable (F11 only, too crude for F10) to see how much in debt the team is, and how this relates to the income shares (tracks both OD and mex refund through base income, separately).
+0 / -0
sprung, there is a maximum soft cap to that of about 2x your average team income so even if your team is in debt to you by tens of thousands of units of metal you get bubkis returns for the ludicrous amounts you invested in power production

this is extra sad when your teammates are so noob that they can not win vs the enemy even with 4x the enemy metal income per player
+0 / -0

8 years ago
Sure, just pointing out you at least get something back.
+0 / -0
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