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LVrankSenaven
13 months ago
This post has been downvoted below -5 and collapsed, click here to expand
I know understand why Zero K is dying. Because most of games is just trolling shit not interesting serious playing.
I can also said 'thanks' to developers because they make this problem even deeper. Especially with new commander upgrade. If older times there was one people who trolls from 7 people team then now its 2 or 3. And unlimited metal eating method to waste metal.
From 20 games i got only few serious team games games.
But there is one nice thing in this game - it show how peoples can be stupid and useless as teammates. So its clearly why there is definitions like wub, lobster and others.
This game become just local trolling club who isn't interesting.
1vs1? Its not interesting in this game.
Fix it? It cant be fixed because you need remove then many peoples from this game. Don't dream about steam rebirth if from 20 games there is only few which is serious. It just stay as local troll club where serious player will play some time and then stop to play it. Game become unplayable for serious players.

+2 / -8

USrank_Shaman
13 months ago
(edited 13 months ago)

You actually want competitive 10v10? You're joking right? Big teams has always been and always will be a troll game. As one wise forum goer said

quote:
Most people don't want a hardcore work out. Most people like a brisk walk.


Small teams remains unpopular amongst the current crowd of people because there are very few tryhards in the crowd. Most people just want to have a little responsibility (and a game) and not feel like total shit because a person on the same team tells them they lost the game for the team. That's why big team games are so attractive. Low personal responsibility, low risk, lots of people to back you up, and plenty of room for experimentation. In 1v1, you don't have this freedom. In 2v2 - 3v3 you don't have as much freedom to do what you want (without the team hating you cuz of high personal responsibility). The so-called trolling results from low personal responsibility (== freedom). Low personal responsibility translates into low "I feel like shit because I play bad and lose" feeling with a moderate chance of "yay I help win the game!" or "yay I did something insanely stupid and won" feeling (EG: Trolls).

However on the flip side, people who get too caught up in playing to win experience the opposite effect:
"More players equals more effort I have to put into to get MY win equals bigger frustration when I lose". This leads to frustration and anger which then manifests itself into posts like this and behavior like UArankDIVO 's or (assuming people behavior is non-satirical and serious) spamming insulting language and raking people over the coals in the after game. Which then modifies the newbie's behavior into "I don't want to play Zero-K any more.".

It's not about the "trolls" or "tryhards" or anyone else. It's about the small community of veterans who clash in ideology (silly vs serious) and the fallout impacts all the newbies (or smurfs that pretend to be newbies which just stroke the flames).

quote:
If older times there was one people who trolls from 7 people team then now its 2 or 3.


Before the update it was 3 or 4 people trolling. A few months ago it was still 3 or 4 people trolling. A year ago it was still 3 or 4 people trolling. Two years ago it was still 3 or 4 people trolling. Three years ago it was 6 or 7 people trolling.
+6 / -1

LVrankSenaven
13 months ago
Before update people couldn't build com 30 000 metal worth. So other could get some benefit from it if just excess or start doing other things too. Now there isn't metal because all time morphing.

+0 / -1

ESrankElTorero
13 months ago
quote:
it show how peoples can be stupid and useless as teammates

Why do you even play online games if you are going to complain about that?

quote:
1vs1? Its not interesting in this game.

No comments.

quote:
Game become unplayable for serious players.

Implying that serious players play those clusterfucks...

Maybe you should complain about the lack of balance in those big games, which results in a big portion of the players being useless. If currently the game allows them to be even more useless than before, maybe it's time to start considering playing more balanced (smaller) games?
+3 / -0


USrankFealthas
13 months ago
I dont really see how wasting 30k metal on a comm is any different from wasting that metal on other things nubs do, like spam ddms in base or suicide waves of units over and over.
+3 / -1

UArankCorvus_Corax
13 months ago
If there would be no difference - no one would say anything. RIP Zero-K.
+0 / -0

PLrankOrfelius
13 months ago
(edited 13 months ago)

Watch out, negativity is a punishable offence in this community.
+2 / -0

USrankSetokaiva[IVL]
13 months ago
(edited 13 months ago)

USrank_Shaman puts a good point on the issue. More players in a game means less feeling of responsibility, less responsibility means less pressure and thus a somewhat more enjoyable game. I usually don't deal too much in 2v2's or other small team games for exactly this reason, because -- let's face it -- I'm really not that good of a player. I can barely win a decent 1v1 (against players like USrankkaen who didn't know quite how to counter Buoy spam and Athena xD), and I typically don't tip the game in my team's favor except in rare cases when I wind up killing a trollcom from AErankFirepluk and then carrying for two game-leavers on Red Comet, or I immediately start work on an Impaler on a tight map like Icy Run because I just know our opponents will try to Defender/LLT creep (and also to snipe forward mexes to deny metal).

Bigger team games means there is just less pressure on me to do everything. In a 1v1 game, I'd have to macromanage economy and factory logistics, and micromanage combat units and scouts all at the same time. Players like ILrankAdminhokomoko , Godde and EErankAdminAnarchid are especially good at this, but that kind of demand on my psyche is quite stressful, and often makes for a less satisfying game -- unless I can miraculously pull off a win, in which case it's usually an occurrence worth enshrining in my permanent favorites list. Thanks, btw, CArankAdminShadowfury333, for casting that particular battle!
+1 / -0

USrankdorsh
13 months ago
1v1 just takes a little practice, anybody can do it
+2 / -0

RUrankbanana_Ai
13 months ago
quote:
but that kind of demand on my psyche is quite stressful, and often makes for a less satisfying game -- unless

unless your battle get streamed
+0 / -0

FRrankSlaab
13 months ago
The best update would be to completely remove the coms

+3 / -3


PLrankRafalpluk
13 months ago
I like how this thread comes from a player who in several games started Singu rush in his base immediately after noticing some of his teammates commorph...
+2 / -1

LVrankSenaven
13 months ago
(edited 13 months ago)

Of course i rush singularity such games. Because i don't see any reason to play when my teammates morphing commanders for they own 'fun'. And after they lost they call others to 'nub team'. And i just didn't like cowards who cant take 'responsibility' for game.
Maybe some players take that big cluster games are just for trolling but i m that player who don't think that big team games is meant for trolling.
Trolling and imbalance is two different things. I didn't write about balancing problems when 1100 elo player comes in game. I write about trolling.

"I dont really see how wasting 30k metal on a comm is any different from wasting that metal on other things nubs do, like spam ddms in base or suicide waves of units over and over. "
Well if its 1200 elo player then i don't care if he do it in start and learn later what to need to do. But if it two players who have 2000 elo in same team then its bit problematic.
+0 / -0

GBrankTheEloIsALie
13 months ago
LVrankSenaven et al.: I wouldn't worry this much. Players will obviously try out new features, no matter if they're underpowered. Trollcoms were always popular.

quote:
Don't dream about steam rebirth if from 20 games there is only few which is serious

Don't agree with the premise here. Those 2k elo players you're complaining about are just bored long-term players. Their contribution to the overall population will significantly decline after steam release.

PS:
quote:
(== freedom)

I couldn't help but smile at the programmer in you showing through :P
+3 / -0

USrank_Shaman
13 months ago
(edited 13 months ago)

quote:
And after they lost they call others to 'nub team'. And i just didn't like cowards who cant take 'responsibility' for game.



Most people register this as 'satire' (of people who take the game seriously enough to complain about newbies).

quote:
Of course i rush singularity such games. Because i don't see any reason to play when my teammates morphing commanders for they own 'fun'.


Doesn't this in effect make you a troll? What makes you think they're not rushing commorph cuz they're tired of putting forth effort into the same thing over and over again? 'Trolling' (this term is so ugly and incorrect it's sad) is more of a way to break the monotony for the individual player and everyone else. It should be seen as a positive thing and not a negative thing. Imagine if every game AErankFirepluk or whoever rushed slashers. Imagine if this was the only acceptable thing to do as LV (much like BA's DSD thing. 'Pros' expect you to play one way. Only one way. Correct me if I am wrong.). Wouldn't he get bored of playing 'acceptably' after a while and want to try scorcher rushing or something else? If you don't encourage experimentation the meta stalls out and we're left with boring games of the same old thing over and over again. (Look at sea games before the reef nerf.)


Take a look at the 'troll's' game counts.

AErankFirepluk: 14192
@Rafal[ZK]: 6838
USrank_Shaman: 5228
PLrankFailer: 4611
(Sorry if I missed anyone :) )

Notice how high the game count is. I came off the whole tryhard thing a few months back personally. I found it to be very unsatisfying. When you're in the 2k elo range your team usually consists of noobs or overrated players and you're stuck carrying everyone else while they have fun. I didn't like it so I changed. I stopped carrying. I lost elo. I now enjoy 76% of games even if the game tells me I lose. Why? Cuz I get to do silly things to make people laugh at how stupid of an idea it is. Or how insanely brilliant it is. I still win cuz I get less responsibility with each game I lose. I don't actively seek to lose (even if I say I do -- I said it once when AErankFirepluk was on his losing elo streak to be 'cool' -- kind of regret that now. It's all an act to cover up my clumsiness in trying something new). I don't quit because I love Zero-K (even if half the players are on the shaman hate train. Not for reals though, you guys love me deep down (lol jk)). If long time players quit when they were jaded, we'd have a lot less players right now. Game might sound more fun that way, but deep down you know it would eventually get boring without the 'trolls'. You'd miss them. Psychologically speaking, even when someone you hate leaves your life, you miss them. You miss the stupid things they'd do to try to impress you. The way they'd talk about it just to get your attention. How they made you feel more competent than what you are when they failed and you stopped them.


On the subject of trollcoms:

The new coms are REALLY cool. Even if they're a bit underpowered they're still neat and a new thing. Of course people are going to try them out! Hell I lost a whole army of trollcoms to a few roaches (lol). Still was a fun thing to do for both sides! Watching 30 coms blow up to a few roaches probably made whoever it was that countered it very happy. (Sorry I forgot your name!) You should lighten up a little, enjoy the new features for yourself. If you want a serious game try to seed small teams and ask like-minded people to join you. Cuz you know, sometimes you need a balance between totally silly play and serious play.

Good luck and have fun trying to find that perfect balance! :D
+3 / -0

PLrankOrfelius
13 months ago
(edited 13 months ago)

quote:
Because most of games is just trolling shit not interesting serious playing.

quote:
But there is one nice thing in this game - it show how peoples can be stupid and useless as teammates.

How to somewhat amend that:
- find a subset of good players willing to cooperate
- clan them
- go wreck clusterfucks
If you play with randoms expect nabishness, expect trolling, expect lack of communication and so on and so on.

quote:
I can also said 'thanks' to developers because they make this problem even deeper. Especially with new commander upgrade.

Now this is something I don't quite understand. Supposedly big teams crowd loves commanders and everything about them yet when they are actually buffed, repurposed and enchanced, suddenly so many people got upset about that fact and these were for the most part... clusterfuck players! Can someone explain that to me?

Overall this thread is all about the community and what it has devolved into that is a silly big teams room and super elitist and competetive subset of duelists. However there are people like apparently LVrankSenaven here, that would like to play team games with people who actually want to play competitively (at least to some degree). This is not currently possible because of how newbs are mixed up with pros which makes the whole point of "tryharding" only hurt the pro more because of the balance issues.

What could be done to filter people interested in competitive team games? Answer is simple: matchmaking. How to make a functional matchmaking? You ofcourse need more players. How to attract more players? We need functional matchmaking and so the loop continues.
Otherwise we will be still either stting in one big room playing clusterfucks or waiting 40 mins until someone will dare to show for a 1v1 match. None of these options are particularly attractive to me anymore and thus I don't play as much as I used to.
+1 / -0

USrankSetokaiva[IVL]
13 months ago
quote:
If long time players quit when they were jaded, we'd have a lot less players right now. Game might sound more fun that way, but deep down you know it would eventually get boring without the 'trolls'. You'd miss them. Psychologically speaking, even when someone you hate leaves your life, you miss them. You miss the stupid things they'd do to try to impress you. The way they'd talk about it just to get your attention. How they made you feel more competent than what you are when they failed and you stopped them.

... Damn, USrank_Shaman is getting pretty deep here, but they actually have a point. I do feel pretty good after countering someone's Disintegtator/Cloak module com, or whatever else they've got. And it is kinda entertaining to hear all the banter about "lobsters", "lobstercom" or "can't fry this shrimp" in the lobby and in game. Also the odd person who tries (and succeeds) at building a Roach cannon with a terraformed ramp and Newtons to launch bombs straight into the enemy base. Things... really wouldn't be the same without those players. If every pro in the community tried hard to win, I might not stand a chance in hell even with a full, balanced team. And it wouldn't be as fun without all those delicious fails (or incredible, heroic clutch moments) from "experimental tactics".
+1 / -0



AUrank[GBC]1v0ry_k1ng
13 months ago
quote:
This game become just local trolling club who isn't interesting.


This game has been a local trolling club for a long time.
+0 / -0


PLrankSprung
13 months ago
quote:
GBrankTheEloIsALie
trolls' contribution to the overall population will significantly decline after steam release

Doesn't matter. Decisions about important playerbase-shaping design (like, "do we feature icy run and trololo" or "do we limit rooms to 4v4 or 37v37") are made _now_.
+1 / -0



AErankFirepluk
13 months ago
LVrankSenaven resign
there is no way you can win
+2 / -0
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